Episode 182
The Intermediate State: What Happens After We Die?
Brian and Ryan have a conversation about a question many people wrestle with: what happens after we die? They acknowledge that it’s a heavy topic, especially for those grieving loved ones, and discuss common ideas about the afterlife—like the belief that the dead watch over us or reunite with family in another realm. While these ideas can be comforting, they question whether they align with what the Bible actually says. Looking at scripture, they point out that the New Testament often describes death as “sleep,” suggesting a temporary state rather than a permanent end. They highlight the emphasis on resurrection, explaining that, for believers, death isn’t the final stop but a step toward being raised and glorified in God’s presence.
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Ryan and Brian’s Bible Bistro is a podcast all about the Bible, theology, and all things related to the Christian faith.
Transcript
Welcome to Ryan Bryan's Bible Bistro.
Speaker A:I'm Brian.
Speaker B:And I'm Ryan.
Speaker A:And this is a podcast all about the Bible and theology and all things.
Speaker B:Pertaining to the Christian faith.
Speaker A:You stop it.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:It's good to be back with you, Ryan.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:It's good we mixed it up.
Speaker B:Brian was just giving me grease before we started, that I'm always the one that started.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And that I'm the one that insisted on my name going first in the podcast.
Speaker B:Well, and I said it's the alliteration.
Speaker A:And then you know what the Bible says.
Speaker A:Though the first shall be last, last shall be first.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Just saying.
Speaker B:Well, your name's alphabetically before mine, so I just.
Speaker A:Jesus juked you right there.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:Something like that, yes.
Speaker A:Well, we're back doing something a little bit different today.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:We're always asking for questions, and this wasn't necessarily a listener question, but I had to ask a question.
Speaker A:I think it's one that gets asked quite a bit.
Speaker A:But I'm going to warn you, this is a difficult topic.
Speaker A:I usually try to talk about things that I.
Speaker A:That I know something about.
Speaker A:This is something that I really don't have a complete answer on, but I think it's.
Speaker A:I think it's a good.
Speaker A:I think it's a good discussion and something for us to think about.
Speaker A:I think a lot of people have this question, basically.
Speaker B:I think you're right.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:The question is basically this.
Speaker A:What happens to us after we die?
Speaker A:You know, it's something we think about this.
Speaker A:This person, this friend of mine, like many people had lost a loved one.
Speaker A:And, you know, I think it comes from kind of culturally, we want to say something that makes people feel better about the loss of a loved one.
Speaker A:And what I mean is they'll.
Speaker A:They'll often say, oh, something like, oh, they're down.
Speaker A:They're looking down on you right now.
Speaker A:Or, you know, oh, they're together with grandpa and grandma again.
Speaker A:You know, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:And, you know, the question is, is that the biblical picture we get of what happens to us after we die?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:I've been asked that question more than once.
Speaker B:And, you know, even as a.
Speaker B:I remember as a kid losing grandparents, thinking, like, sure, where are they now?
Speaker B:Or are they looking down on me?
Speaker B:Or what that is.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:So what's going on?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I'm excited for this conversation that you don't know anything about, but I'm excited to have the conversation well, the.
Speaker A:Short answer is, what happens after we die?
Speaker A:The short answer is I don't know.
Speaker A:So if we want to just leave it at the answer, that would be the end of the podcast Cliff Notes.
Speaker A:Yeah, but I do think that the Bible and I went in, you know, I noticed, you know, YouTube, we put out this podcast on YouTube.
Speaker A:If you just listen to us on the podcast apps.
Speaker A:And there's quite a few people who've answered this question in different ways on the, on the, on YouTube as well.
Speaker A:I think, like you said, I think it's a big question.
Speaker A:I do think the Bible gives us some information.
Speaker A:And so here's what I thought I would do.
Speaker A:I thought I would talk about the way that the Bible talks about this period after our death.
Speaker A:And I thought we would also say here are some things that we can say with confidence about what the Bible teaches us.
Speaker A:And then we'll get into the more speculative things and talk about some of the more difficult passages.
Speaker A:Because, you know, I was watching NT Wright, Tom Wright did a, did a little video on this, and I was watching his.
Speaker A:He wrote a great book.
Speaker A:I'm going to reference to Surprised by Hope, which really, we should actually talk about that book sometime because if you haven't read it, it's a great read.
Speaker A:Is it on our.
Speaker A:Is it in our.
Speaker B:I'll have to look.
Speaker B:I think it might be.
Speaker A:We should, we should have that.
Speaker B:A lot of his books up there.
Speaker A:So it's a really great read about all these kind of issues.
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker A:You know, because we talk about going to heaven, which is not a biblical concept.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This idea of when we die, we go to heaven.
Speaker A:We don't find anything like that in Scripture.
Speaker A:But there are, you know, he basically helps us reimagine what it means to be hopeful Christians and to trust in the resurrection that we're clearly told about in Scripture.
Speaker A:But anyway, he said something to the effect of that the New Testament writers aren't interested in the same kind of questions that we are, right.
Speaker A:For them.
Speaker A:What's important is that when we die, that's not the end, that there is the hope of a resurrection, but they seem to point toward a resurrection at the end of time.
Speaker A:And so that's kind of.
Speaker A:The New Testament writers are often asking a different question or asking the question a different way than.
Speaker A:Than what we are.
Speaker A:But anyway, the language that we find used frequently in the New Testament for death is falling asleep.
Speaker A:And I just mentioned.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read 1 Thessalonians 4 for me here in a minute.
Speaker A:And this is another passage that's kind of controversial as well.
Speaker A:But we see this language.
Speaker A:I always say Jesus used this language.
Speaker A:He talks about those who've fallen asleep.
Speaker A:He even talks about Lazarus.
Speaker A:He has fallen asleep, by which he means he died.
Speaker A:Paul uses this language.
Speaker A:We're going to see the Apostle Peter in his letters use this language.
Speaker A:John uses this language in his letters.
Speaker A:So this is one of the most frequent ways to describe the death of a believer.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read 1 Thessalonians 4, 13, 18 there for us, brothers and.
Speaker B:Sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind who have no hope for we believe that Jesus died and rose again.
Speaker B:And so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him according to the Lord's Word.
Speaker B:We tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Speaker B:For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God.
Speaker B:And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Speaker B:After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Speaker B:And so we will be with the Lord forever, therefore, encourage one another with these words.
Speaker A:So this is a passage we often talk about.
Speaker A:When people are talking about the Rapture, they'll use this passage.
Speaker A:But I want you to notice the first thing that Paul says here is we don't want you to be uninformed about those who have.
Speaker A:And the NIV actually added the word death there.
Speaker A:But in order to kind of clarify exactly what we're talking about here.
Speaker A:But those who have fallen asleep.
Speaker A:And this was a question.
Speaker A:This was really the question that the Thessalonian Christians had.
Speaker A:They were facing persecution.
Speaker A:Some of them were in danger of dying.
Speaker A:And the idea is, if we die before Jesus returns, what does that mean?
Speaker A:And Paul makes clear that even those who are dead in Christ will be.
Speaker A:It says God will bring with him Christ when he returns those who've fallen asleep.
Speaker A:And so we find fallen asleep used there.
Speaker A:Look at 1 Corinthians 15.
Speaker A:1 Corinthians 15 is the longest single teaching we have on the resurrection in the entire New Testament.
Speaker A:Paul devotes this long chapter to it.
Speaker A:I mean, we made the chapters, but you know what I'm saying, this long section, he talks about resurrection.
Speaker A:I just have a couple of Verses there.
Speaker A:But fallen asleep is used here in this as well.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read that for us.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B: Corinthians: Speaker B:Listen, I tell you a mystery.
Speaker B:We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Speaker B:And a flash in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
Speaker B:For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishably, and we will be changed.
Speaker B:Okay, so I can't read that without thinking of Sandy Patty.
Speaker B:By the way, for those who grew up in the church, there is a Sandy Patty song we've all heard.
Speaker B:And I just can't read that without Sandy Patty.
Speaker A:It's got that glaring in my head now.
Speaker A:Now, your mom is known to be a Sandy Patty singer, so you probably.
Speaker B:Heard back in the day we had the tracks.
Speaker B:Yes, it was very.
Speaker A:You probably heard her sing this song a few times.
Speaker A:It was a perennial favorite, especially around Easter.
Speaker A:But anyway, getting back to the subject at hand, so notice that sleep again, I want to mention that, but then Paul talks about this idea that we will all be changed.
Speaker A:Even those who are left alive at the time of Christ will be changed.
Speaker A:And this is one of the things that is that I said.
Speaker A:The New Testament writers aren't necessarily interested in the same thing that we are, but one of the things that they do say is we are going to have glorified bodies.
Speaker A:Jesus is called the first fruits from the dead.
Speaker A:His resurrection body is different than.
Speaker A:There's a continuity with his physical body that he had during his earthly ministry.
Speaker A:But in his resurrection, his body seems to have had other characteristics.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He could come in through locked doors and he was able to ascend into the heavens, these kind of things.
Speaker A:And so Paul here affirms that all of us are going to have transformed bodies.
Speaker A:We're going to have resurrection bodies.
Speaker A:Again, I think there will be continuity with our physical bodies now, but they're going to be different.
Speaker A:And really, and this is the way that.
Speaker A:That Tom Wright would put it, I think, is that these will be bodies that are suited for that age to come, that resurrection, that new heavens and new earth.
Speaker A:Our bodies will be suited for that environment, that place to live in.
Speaker A:The new earth is what we have.
Speaker A:Anyway, the point I wanted to begin with is that falling asleep is the consistent way that.
Speaker A:That the New Testament talks about this.
Speaker A:And I think what's being emphasized is when we fall asleep, we wake up, right?
Speaker A:Sleep is not permanent state.
Speaker B:It's a temporary state.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I think that's what's being emphasized is that the death of a believer is not the end.
Speaker A:But just like we fall asleep, there will be a time where we wake up and there we're thinking about the resurrection.
Speaker A:So we can say that with consistency, with certainty, that death for the Christian.
Speaker A:Jesus teaches us this.
Speaker A:He makes very clear death for the Christian is not the end.
Speaker A:Jesus says that the one who believes in me, the one who trusts in me, will live even though they die.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This is the consistent teaching of the New Testament.
Speaker A:Now, there's some other things I think we can say clearly and with confidence.
Speaker A:Philippians 1.
Speaker A:I think I have this here someplace, if I can find it.
Speaker A:Philippians Chapter one, maybe.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:I've got it if you don't.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, go ahead then.
Speaker A:Philippians chapter 1, verses 20 through 24.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read that passage.
Speaker B:I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now, as always, Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
Speaker B:For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Speaker B:If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me.
Speaker B:Yet what shall I choose?
Speaker B:I do not know.
Speaker B:I'm torn between the two.
Speaker B:I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.
Speaker B:But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Speaker A:So Paul here is kind of.
Speaker A:He's in prison, I'll remind you, when he's writing Philippians, it's a very joyful letter, but he's in prison facing the possibility of death by execution.
Speaker A:Now, I don't believe he dies at the end of this, of this imprisonment, personally, but he's basically kind of writing the Philippians and kind of going back and forth, and basically he's saying, I'm not afraid of death.
Speaker A:And even later on in 2 Timothy, where he does think he's going to die for sure, he says there, I'm confident in the one to whom I've entrusted my life, basically, that he's able to keep me against that day.
Speaker A:So here he's saying, and famously, we quote this all the time.
Speaker A:To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read 2 Corinthians 5, 8 as well.
Speaker A:It's a very similar kind of teaching here.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker B:Yeah, we are confident, I say, and prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Speaker A:So what we can say for certain is when we die in some way, we are present with the Lord, with Jesus, we are with him.
Speaker A:And furthermore, go ahead and read Colossians 3:1:4.
Speaker A:It's not just that we're with him, but the important thing here, I think, is that he is able to keep our life.
Speaker A:We can, you know, what I just mentioned in 2 Timothy, where Paul says he's able to keep that which I've entrusted to him against that day.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read Colossians 3:1:4 for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Since then you have been raised with Christ.
Speaker B:Set your hearts on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
Speaker B:Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Speaker B:For you died and your life is now hidden with Christ and God.
Speaker B:When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Speaker A:So to be absent from the body, to be dead is to be present with the Lord.
Speaker A:And there's a way in which our lives are now hidden with him.
Speaker A:Ironically, Paul makes the most out of this.
Speaker A:He says we died before in baptism.
Speaker A:He particularly mentions we died then, and therefore our lives are now hidden with Christ.
Speaker A:And so I think the importance here is that, I guess the fear we would have, and this is what the New Testament writers are addressing, I think the fear would be, when we die, does our personhood dissolve?
Speaker A:Is that the end of our personhood?
Speaker A:And Paul here, I think, is affirming.
Speaker A:And what I think we can say confidently is whatever the state is like after our death, we can have confidence that Jesus is the Messiah.
Speaker A:Jesus the Christ is able to keep our lives and our lives are with him.
Speaker A:Okay, so that's.
Speaker A:I can say that unequivocally.
Speaker A:Unequivocally, yeah, whatever.
Speaker B:Close.
Speaker A:Without a doubt.
Speaker A:Michael Scott.
Speaker A:I could say that.
Speaker A:I trust I use too many big words.
Speaker A:That's on my evaluation.
Speaker B:Severance reference.
Speaker B:Anyway, go on.
Speaker A:So the.
Speaker A:Yeah, you shouldn't watch it.
Speaker A:Show.
Speaker A:Awful show.
Speaker A:But anyway, the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:I really like it.
Speaker A:Anyway, what I can say with confidence is that our lives are with him.
Speaker A:And when we are absent from the body, we're present with him.
Speaker A:Comments on that or questions.
Speaker A:Anything else that you want to say?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think that's always the.
Speaker B:I know you're going to throw like a.
Speaker B:Something in the gears here, but you know, that's always.
Speaker B:I mean, this, this is always the things that I've heard, like, what does it mean?
Speaker B:You know, it's always a question, what does it mean to be with the Lord?
Speaker B:Like, what does it mean to be.
Speaker B:To be with him that way?
Speaker B:You know, I mean, I think that's what you said it's like I can say that.
Speaker B:But I think the question always is, well, in what way are we with him then?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:And we'll look at some of the passages that are a little bit more difficult that may answer that question.
Speaker A:But here's what I want you to hear.
Speaker A:Here's the thing that I think can give us hope and can give us this assurance is that our lives will be kept with him, right?
Speaker A:Whether we are aware and awake, or whether it is like sleep, what we would call soul sleep.
Speaker A:Whichever one of those understandings we have of the in between state, I'm going to call it, and there's a reason it is the in between state.
Speaker A:We do not.
Speaker A:I'm going to say this unequivocally as well, and I'll say here, why in just a moment, we do not go to our final states after our death.
Speaker A:It's not until the resurrection of Jesus that that final state becomes what it is.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:We're looking forward to his return.
Speaker A:And even that passage in 1 Thessalonians 4, the very first one we read, says that he will bring with him those who are dead in Christ, and then the dead in Christ will rise first, right?
Speaker A:First Corinthians 15.
Speaker A:Even those of us who are alive will be transformed.
Speaker A:Our bodies will be transformed at that time, at the time of the resurrection.
Speaker A:So whatever that intermediate state, whatever it's like the time between our death and the return of Jesus, what we can say is that we don't have to worry about our.
Speaker A:Our person being lost, right?
Speaker A:Our lives, however, we want to understand that.
Speaker A:I think I would use the word soul, but that's probably a discussion for a different day.
Speaker A:Our lives are kept with the Messiah, and they're safe with Him.
Speaker A:We can trust that.
Speaker A:So our loved ones who've died, what I will say without question is they're kept safe with him and they have the hope of the resurrection, right?
Speaker A:They look forward to that time of being raised and given a new glorified body to live in the new heaven and the new earth.
Speaker A:We're talking about those who've died in Christ.
Speaker A:We're talking about believers.
Speaker A:Here's what I'm talking about.
Speaker A:So that's the question people want to know, though, is what's that state like?
Speaker A:And here's where it gets a little bit more difficult.
Speaker A:And I've mentioned these three passages.
Speaker A:There may be some others, but for me, these are the three that always come to mind.
Speaker A:And all three of them have Difficulties in their own way.
Speaker A:And I may make reference to a couple of others.
Speaker A:This is going to be a really scripture rich, which I mean rightfully so.
Speaker A:We want to look at what the Bible says about this topic, right?
Speaker A:But it can get confusing.
Speaker A:I know when we're reading all these different scriptures and from a variety of different places.
Speaker A:But the first one is a story, a parable, so to speak, that Jesus told that we find recorded in Luke 16.
Speaker A:Now, I say it's a parable, but there's a couple of things that make it unusual.
Speaker A:If it is a parable.
Speaker A:There are a couple of things that make it very unusual.
Speaker A:The first thing that would make it unusual is that there's the use of a proper name.
Speaker A:Here, let me just read the first part of this.
Speaker A:This is Luke chapter 16.
Speaker A:I'm starting in verse 19.
Speaker A:There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
Speaker A:Now stop here and say, that's the way Jesus parables often start.
Speaker A:There was a certain man.
Speaker A:In fact, if you look back In Luke chapter 15, he tells parables there.
Speaker A:There was a certain man who had two sons, right?
Speaker A:That's the way his parables often start.
Speaker A:So here's a rich man, he's dressed in purple, fine linen, lived in luxury every day.
Speaker A:At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus.
Speaker A:Now that's what's unusual is that is the only example we have if this indeed is a parable.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And I'll say what else it could be in just a moment.
Speaker A:But if this is a parable, that is literally the only recorded parable of Jesus that uses a proper name.
Speaker A:So that makes it very unusual, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:At his gate was later beggar named Lazarus.
Speaker A:Again, Jesus usually says a certain man or there was a beggar and that's where he would leave it.
Speaker A:But this beggars named Lazarus, covered with sores, longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table.
Speaker A:Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Speaker A:By the way, I'll just mention in the Latin, when the Latin became the primary language here, the rich man was given a name too.
Speaker A:In this account he was called Dives, which is the.
Speaker A:Is the Latin word that's used here for the rich man.
Speaker A:But anyway, it was Lazarus and Dives.
Speaker A:And you'll still see some people refer to this parable in that way.
Speaker A:The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom.
Speaker A:Or the Niv says Abraham's side.
Speaker A:So he goes at his death to this, I don't know, place isn't even the right word.
Speaker A:This state, let's say that's called Abraham's bosom.
Speaker A:The rich man also died and was buried in Hades.
Speaker A:The grave is what that word means, Hades, where he was in torment.
Speaker A:He looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.
Speaker A:So he called to him, father Abraham, have pity on me.
Speaker A:Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I'm in agony in this fire.
Speaker A:But Abraham replied, son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things.
Speaker A:But now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Speaker A:And besides all this, between us and you, a great chasm has been set in place, or the older translations say a fix.
Speaker A:Great chasm has been fixed so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone, cross over from there to here or to us.
Speaker A:So the other unusual thing about this parable, I mean, give me an example of a parable.
Speaker A:Don't care.
Speaker B:Any parable.
Speaker A:Any parable.
Speaker B:Good Samaritan.
Speaker A:Good Samaritan.
Speaker A:You're talking about a situation there.
Speaker A:A certain man falls among thieves on the road up to Jericho.
Speaker A:You're talking about a situation that people would have related to.
Speaker A:It's a real world situation.
Speaker A:You know, kind of the Sunday school answer when we talk about parable is it's an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, right?
Speaker A:You've heard that.
Speaker A:I don't think that's really a great definition.
Speaker A:But the idea is Jesus gives us stories that have real world images that teach us a lesson, right?
Speaker A:So he talks about a vineyard, he talks about sowing seed, he talks about a man with two sons.
Speaker A:He talks about a woman who loses a coin, right?
Speaker A:He uses everyday examples in order to give us a deeper meaning.
Speaker A:Now, what's different about this parable?
Speaker A:It's not only that Lazarus is named, but also he uses kind of an esoteric, you know, this idea of a heavenly viewpoint, whatever we want to call it, a spiritual viewpoint, at least in order to teach us this lesson.
Speaker A:Now that by itself doesn't mean that this is a real account that Jesus is telling us.
Speaker A:It could be, I don't know, it could be that Jesus is simply using the typical understanding of life after death that a first century Jew would have had.
Speaker A:Or at least the first century Jews that believed in resurrection.
Speaker A:Like Pharisees.
Speaker A:Like Pharisees.
Speaker A:Most of his followers, not Sadducees, Right?
Speaker A:But it's clear that most of Jesus Followers, his earliest disciples came from that viewpoint.
Speaker A:And the reason I say that it's clear is I'll just give you an example.
Speaker A:I mentioned Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.
Speaker A:Not this Lazarus, the other Lazarus, although some people do think that these are related.
Speaker A:But he raises Lazarus from the dead in John 11.
Speaker A:And Martha comes to him and Jesus says, your brother will live again.
Speaker A:And she says, oh, I know that he will at the resurrection, at the last day.
Speaker A:So she's clearly, she has a Pharisaic worldview.
Speaker A:There are different ways that Jews understood the end of the world.
Speaker A:She has that Pharisaic worldview that there's going to be a resurrection at the end of the world.
Speaker A:Excuse me.
Speaker A:And I think other followers of Jesus believe that same thing.
Speaker A:They have references to the resurrection, so forth.
Speaker A:But anyway, he could be using that common understanding in order to tell the story.
Speaker A:You get what I'm saying?
Speaker A:Like kind of that common cultural understanding of this.
Speaker A:But then what's interesting, as he goes on from here, then not only does he say there's this great chasm fixed and notice, had a simply means the grave.
Speaker A:But it says that he's in torment.
Speaker A:And I'm going to use that word, torment, Suffering.
Speaker A:He's already suffering.
Speaker A:Lazarus is being comforted, right?
Speaker A:So they're already experiencing in this story of Jesus again, parable, or whatever you want to think, think about it as they're already experiencing the beginning of their reward.
Speaker A:But we're not yet to the return of Jesus, right?
Speaker A:I think that's still in the future.
Speaker A:But that's again, not the main point of this story yet.
Speaker A:So verse 27, the rich man then answered, then I beg you, Father, Father Abraham, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Speaker A:Let him warn them so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
Speaker A:So the reason I mention this is this seems to be a situation again.
Speaker A:However, we understand this, if it is more than simply a story, a parable in a fictional sense, the rich man seems to have an awareness of what's going on on the earth, okay?
Speaker A:And all I mean is, at least he knows that his five brothers are still alive and are in danger of coming to torment as well.
Speaker A:Now he goes on and he says, Abraham replied, they have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them.
Speaker A:No, Father Abraham, he said, but if someone comes from the dead and goes to them, they will repent.
Speaker A:And this is really the main point of the story that Jesus is getting at.
Speaker A:He said, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets they will not be convinced.
Speaker A:Even if someone rises from the dead.
Speaker A:Jesus here proleptically talking about his own resurrection and that there will be those who deny it.
Speaker A:Even if someone comes from the dead to tell them, if they don't believe Moses and the prophets, why would they believe someone who rose from the dead?
Speaker A:So that's the main point of the story.
Speaker A:That's what makes this a difficult passage.
Speaker A:And I don't want to say for certain, this gives us a picture of what the postmortem after death state is like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It can be taken as.
Speaker B:This is a story to illustrate the point.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Not that the story itself is the point.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Every detail of a parable is not literal.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We have to be careful about that.
Speaker A:And so that's what makes.
Speaker A:I say all three of these passages have certain problems that come with them.
Speaker A:So this does seem to hit, though, at that idea.
Speaker A:Again, depending on how we understand this passage and how we take it.
Speaker A:Any other thoughts on that?
Speaker B:I don't think so.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't know if I'd ever thought of it that way.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, I'd always thought of it as the.
Speaker B:Always kind of a weird story, you know, like.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:What's the story?
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, I mean, we obviously.
Speaker B:I mean there's very extremes here.
Speaker B:The Lazarus who has his sores licked by dogs, and then we just have the rich man.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:It's like it's.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:It's almost an extorior of extremes in.
Speaker B:In both.
Speaker B:In both directions.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess the other.
Speaker A:And I said the point is, even if someone comes from the dead, there does seem to be an ethical point here as well, that, you know, if you indulge yourself in this life, then you've already received your reward, which Jesus says similar things.
Speaker A:You know, you've received your reward in full if you do these things in front of others.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But then those who have suffered in this life may have the promise of.
Speaker A:Of comfort in.
Speaker A:In the life to come.
Speaker A:Second passage is when Jesus is on the cross and you might remember that the one criminal kind of curses Jesus.
Speaker A:Jesus is crucified between a couple of different criminals of some form, insurrectionist or robbers or however we understand them.
Speaker A:And the one kind of mocks him and yet the other one says basically, have mercy on me.
Speaker A:And Jesus response to him is, I tell you the truth, today you'll be with me in paradise.
Speaker A:And again, it's kind of a difficult statement, but basically Again, I think the primary point is that he is acknowledging who Jesus is, even on the cross.
Speaker A:But this idea of today, if we take it literally, today you'll be with me in paradise, would mean that at his death, this criminal is going to experience paradise.
Speaker A:Now, a lot of times people want to conflate this and the story of Lazarus and call Paradise Abraham's bosom or whatever.
Speaker A:What I'll say again, I don't think this tells us necessarily anything about what that state is like, but I do believe that it shows us that at our deaths, we begin to experience either the comfort or the torment that will be the eternal state that we find ourselves in at the resurrection of Jesus.
Speaker A:But anyway, today you'll be with me in paradise.
Speaker A:Just a simple kind of line there.
Speaker B:Okay, yeah, it is a very simple line there.
Speaker A:Here's the third one.
Speaker A:And this is apocalyptic literature.
Speaker A:This is the Book of Revelation.
Speaker A:Of course, you know, Book of Revelation is notoriously difficult for us to understand, and again, primarily not interested in the question we're asking of it at this point, but go ahead and read.
Speaker A:This is the fifth seal, the opening of.
Speaker A:You remember the seven seals.
Speaker A:This is the opening of the fifth seal.
Speaker A:It's recorded in Revelation 6, 9, 11.
Speaker A:I think you have it there for us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Speaker B:They called out in a loud voice, how long, sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood.
Speaker B:Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Speaker A:Now, we've talked about Revelation a lot on this podcast, and Revelation is really about helping the Christians who are enduring persecution from the Romans and probably in cahoots with the local leaders of the various places where they find themselves.
Speaker A:But the Roman Empire and others are beginning to persecute Christians.
Speaker A:There's the question of how much that persecution.
Speaker A:But at least we see Paul or John on in exile in the Isle of Patmos because he's maintained his testimony.
Speaker A:And you notice that these are slain.
Speaker A:It says they've been killed because of their faithfulness to their testimony in the word of God.
Speaker A:In fact, that's why we call.
Speaker A:That's where we get the word martyr.
Speaker A:These are the slain saints under the altar who maintain their Martus, their testimony.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So these are martyrs.
Speaker A:These are witnesses but the word martyr becomes used for those who die for their faith because they maintain they hold fast to their faith despite the threat of death.
Speaker A:So again, that's the main point.
Speaker A:The main point here is that even though there may be a delay, right?
Speaker A:Because they say, how long, O Lord, faithful and true, if we are, we need to have a patience.
Speaker A:This is the main thing that the Book of Revelation is teaching us with this seal, is that we have patience, trusting that God will eventually bring about justice, that they will receive recompense for their deaths, that their faithfulness will be rewarded, and that those who have killed him and those who are unfaithful, they will receive judgment.
Speaker A:That's what it says.
Speaker A:How long, O Lord, faithful and truth, till you avenge our blood and judge the inhabitants of the earth, which I think inhabitants of the earth in the book of Revelation is often shorthand for these kind of the wicked ones, right?
Speaker A:The ones who are causing these issues for us.
Speaker A:But again, if so it's apocalyptic literature, right?
Speaker A:It's an image.
Speaker A:So we take it as that.
Speaker A:But it does seem to indicate if we understand this to be an accurate picture of the post mortem, the after death situation.
Speaker A:We find them not only aware, right?
Speaker A:Recognizing they are waiting and they're called to wait even longer, right?
Speaker A:They're in this waiting period, but they are aware.
Speaker A:And furthermore, they're aware that the inhabitants of the earth have not yet been judged.
Speaker A:So they seem to have some awareness of what's going on on the earth.
Speaker A:Now, here's why I can't come down for sure to say that this indicates that we will be in some kind of an awareness, but in a waiting state after our deaths because of the difficulty of these passages, because one's apocalyptic, the others, however, we understand the story, a parable or some other account of Jesus, they're very difficult.
Speaker A:They're very difficult for us to draw too much inference from.
Speaker A:But I do think they are suggestive of the possibility of some kind of postmortem awareness of what's going on on the earth while we're in that waiting period.
Speaker A:And I'll come back more to say, say more about why I call it a waiting period.
Speaker A:I've alluded to it already, but I just want to be clear about that as well.
Speaker A:Thoughts on that or any?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So are you setting us up here a little bit?
Speaker B:Like we don't know exactly the nature of it, but there is.
Speaker B:So for you, you're saying like, we've had this, we've had the other passages, we've looked at, there seems to be, you know, present with the Lord kept in him.
Speaker B:But you're saying, like the idea of cognizant, like, or, you know, like whatever that looks like being aware doesn't seem.
Speaker B:That we don't have.
Speaker B:We have allusions to it or there seems to reference to it, but it doesn't seem to be definitive evidence.
Speaker A:There's no definitive ev.
Speaker A:But it also.
Speaker A:I don't think we can immediately exclude it either.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we have these accounts.
Speaker A:So that's why, if you remember, at the very beginning of this episode, I said the answer to this question is I don't know.
Speaker A:But what I do again, I do want to.
Speaker A:There's two things I'm going to sandwich this.
Speaker A:So the middle part, the cream filling, is the I don't know part.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What I wanted to say, the.
Speaker A:The top cookie in the Oreo, is to say that we can absolutely have confidence that our lives are kept safe with our Savior, with a Messiah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:No question about that.
Speaker A:I don't have to worry about my loved ones being, as a believer dissipating.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That I believe those who've gone before us, their lives are kept safe with the Messiah.
Speaker A:The last thing I'm going to say is a confidence that we can have as well.
Speaker A:The middle part, what it's like, is the question that.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I hadn't thought of this until just now when I said that those who've gone before.
Speaker A:I haven't really ever used this passage, but I'm not going to do it right now.
Speaker A:But let's come back and think about this.
Speaker A:Hebrews writer talks about this great cloud of witnesses, right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that we're surrounded by those who are in some way witnessing our journeys.
Speaker A:And so let me think about that.
Speaker A:I may come back and talk about that some more.
Speaker A:We may have somebody that knows more about the Book of Hebrews come and talk about that.
Speaker A:But these passages are the ones that I always go to.
Speaker A:To say, I don't know.
Speaker A:These are weird passages.
Speaker A:They seem to indicate this possibility, but I'm not willing to say.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:This is what the.
Speaker A:This is what the postmortem state is like.
Speaker A:Here's the third thing I'm going to come down though, on.
Speaker A:This is the.
Speaker A:This is the bottom of the Oreo, right.
Speaker A:This is the other solid.
Speaker A:Okay, Solid thing.
Speaker B:Bottom bun.
Speaker A:Yeah, the bottom bun of the.
Speaker A:Of the.
Speaker A:Well, it can't be a Big Mac because that has three buns.
Speaker A:But anyway, yeah, the bottom bun of the.
Speaker A:Of the hamburger.
Speaker A:So maybe a Quarter Pounder.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:It does not matter.
Speaker B:It could be a Whopper, even a Whopper.
Speaker B:It could be anything.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, so I like.
Speaker A:I like Oreo better because the filling is kind of soft and, you know, the cookie outside is solid.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But the cream filling, whatever.
Speaker A:So the bottom layer.
Speaker A:The bottom layer of this is whatever state we are in.
Speaker A:In our postmortem state, we have not entered the final.
Speaker A:That's not the consummation.
Speaker A:That's not the final act in God's redemptive plan.
Speaker A:So if we understand Lazarus to be receiving comfort, it is not yet the complete fulfillment of Christ's return and the final resurrection, I would say, and there's a couple of different reasons, I think this is pretty important.
Speaker A:And also if the rich man, for example, is experiencing torment, it is not yet the final judgment.
Speaker A:And the final.
Speaker A:He may be slated for that, but it is not the eternal judgment that we understand.
Speaker A:For those who have rejected the Messiah or rejected the Christ, what I would say is that the Bible makes clear Jesus talks about this.
Speaker A:Paul, everybody talks about this, that what we await is that final resurrection.
Speaker A:So 1 Corinthians 15 even though we trust that we live, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Speaker A:As we read about, goes on and says, it's not until Christ returns, if you even remember that passage we looked at, it's not until his return that we are transformed.
Speaker A:1 Thessalonians 4 It's not until Christ returns and brings with him those who are dead in Christ that we are all raised into these resurrection bodies and we are together forever.
Speaker A:So there are a few things that I say are necessary for that final state to be true.
Speaker A:First is we will be present with God.
Speaker A:We will all be together with him in a different kind of way, I would say even than we are now.
Speaker A:We understand that we are present with God in the sense that the Spirit indwells us and lives in the midst of God's people.
Speaker A:Jesus has promised in this way he's with us till the very end of the age, but in a new and a different way.
Speaker A:We will be standing in the very presence of God in that age to come.
Speaker A:Secondly, as I've been mentioning over and over again, our bodies will be glorified.
Speaker A:And I like the way, again, Tom Wright talks about this.
Speaker A:Oh, by the way, I should use this phrase.
Speaker A:He likes to use the phrase, this is life after life after death.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So life after death is what I've been calling the Intermediate state, whatever we understand that to be.
Speaker A:But then the final resurrection he would call life after life, after death.
Speaker A:In other words, what is that final state that we find?
Speaker A:So our bodies will be glorified.
Speaker A:And again, I like the way that he describes it, that they will be suited for living in this new environment, this new heavens and new earth.
Speaker A:And I've said to you before God, so we find God's presence in the Garden of Eden, right?
Speaker A:And that's where God created for us to live.
Speaker A:And then we're separated by our sin.
Speaker A:And that's really the state, we find that through the rest of, of history until the present.
Speaker A:But the hope of the resurrection is a reuniting of that and us once again being united with God, but in that place.
Speaker A:So the book of Revelation describes the new Jerusalem like a garden, right?
Speaker A:You've got the river of life, you've got the fruit trees that are growing, you have the tree of life again.
Speaker A:So eternal life is the way I would understand this in glorified bodies that are, that are meant, are purpose built for living in that age, probably more like what bodies we were originally given.
Speaker A:I don't want to speculate on that too much.
Speaker A:But it was sin, I think, that transformed us.
Speaker A:And now with a complete doing away with sin, our bodies will be transformed.
Speaker A:Death itself.
Speaker A:This is 1 Corinthians 15 or the book of Revelation tells this story in a number of different ways.
Speaker A:But death itself will finally be defeated.
Speaker A:Death itself will die, as we sometimes sing, that there will be a doing away with pain and suffering and death and mourning and all that manner of things will be done away with and we will be made new.
Speaker A:The other part is then we will finally be together, at peace with one another.
Speaker A:And that's, you know, even if we're aware in the post mortem state, it's not until the resurrection when all of God's people in all of history will be brought together in one community, at peace with one another.
Speaker A:So at the very least, we await that time when we will all be brought together and creation itself will be what it was meant to be in the beginning, a place of safety, a place of provision.
Speaker A:Let me give you example.
Speaker A:Safety.
Speaker A:I love the picture of the new Jerusalem.
Speaker A:It's described as having walls.
Speaker A:I can't remember the dimensions now.
Speaker A:And it's all symbolic, 144 cubits thick, which I can't remember now how many feet that is, but it's super thick walls.
Speaker A:They're miles high, miles wide, but they have 12 gates that are Open all the time.
Speaker A:So you've got these super thick walls.
Speaker B:With gates that are open, but gates.
Speaker A:That are constantly open because there's no need, there's nothing to protect from any longer.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's safety, not because we have the ultimate defense, but because there is no longer anything that can harm God's people.
Speaker A:Nothing impure will ever come into that city is the way it's described in Revelation chapter 21.
Speaker A:So creation itself will be at peace again.
Speaker A:You know, we've got the, the image of the.
Speaker A:The tree of life growing on each side of the.
Speaker A:The river of life flowing from the throne of God.
Speaker A:And, and in, you know, 12 seasons, it's, it's constantly, you know, bearing fruit.
Speaker A:So it's a time of abundance.
Speaker A:It's the, it's the final.
Speaker A:I keep using the word consummation because that's, that's what we say about it, is that final fulfillment of what the Messiah brought us.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And what the Messiah did in his healing.
Speaker A:It began with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
Speaker A:And it began for each of us as we enter into his story and we take the promises that he's given us for ourselves.
Speaker A:That begins in each of us, but it's consummated in that time when we're all together and creation itself is restored, when the new earth becomes what God intended this thing to be from the very beginning, from creation, earth itself will be made new.
Speaker A:So I can say that for certain, that's the story of scripture.
Speaker A:I can say for certain that I don't worry about if I die tomorrow, if I die today, God forbid, but if I die today, I trust that my life will be kept safe with the Messiah.
Speaker A:No question about that for me, even if I die.
Speaker A:And by the way, I was watching one video, I tried to watch a few YouTube videos.
Speaker A:They're of mixed value.
Speaker A:This one guy was talking about soul sleep.
Speaker B:That's the definition of YouTube.
Speaker A:One guy was talking about soul sleep is a heresy.
Speaker A:And I want to say, I don't think that word means what you think it means, because that was really the view for the majority of the life of the church.
Speaker A:You know, that was going to be.
Speaker B:One of my questions.
Speaker A:1500 years.
Speaker A:I mean, that's pretty much what the church believes, is that we sleep and we wait until a time where we will be raised to be with him.
Speaker A:So at least.
Speaker A:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker B:Do you have any information about, like, why maybe that shifted for us or what was the impetus?
Speaker B:You know, you can find, yeah, 100 bucks on heaven Now, Well, I think.
Speaker A:You mean what shifted us from this idea of soul sleep into the idea that we're somehow disembodied spirits?
Speaker A:I think a couple of things I would say, I would say it has to do.
Speaker A:I'll channel my Charles Taylor here for a moment, say, well, it's clearly the Protestant Reformation, right?
Speaker A:But I think all loads are, I think the influence of modernism, this idea of trying to understand scientifically what's happening with the human body, with the human, with our consciousness, understanding that.
Speaker A:And again, I think that's what I would say, if you want to use those terms, that's what's kept safe with the Messiah.
Speaker A:I don't know what it.
Speaker A:I don't have enough information.
Speaker A:Here's part of the problem.
Speaker A:I don't know what it's like to be a disembodied spirit.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I don't know what that's like.
Speaker A:I have no information.
Speaker A:But I do know for us to be resurrected, we will be physically given resurrection bodies, right?
Speaker A:We will again be what we were created to be.
Speaker B:So I'm not saying this to be tongue in cheek, but this isn't like a purgatory, just a waiting period, like where you can be moved from here to there.
Speaker B:You don't see anything like that?
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker A:And again, well, and so I think even if we take the view of soul sleep, I think it's only from our human perspective where we are now, that we have to even answer that question, right.
Speaker A:I think when I die, even if there is this period of contemporary period of time like we seem to have in the slain saints under the altar, right, where they're waiting and they're, in fact, they're kind of impatient, right?
Speaker A:How long until you avenge our blood?
Speaker A:If that is in fact a reality?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:But even if we believe soul sleep, I think for us it will be essentially falling asleep and then waking up in the morning the same way a.
Speaker B:Blink of an eye.
Speaker A:Without Macbeth's per chance to dream, Right.
Speaker A:Or was that Hamlet?
Speaker A:So, you know, this, this is the rub.
Speaker A:To be or not to be, that is the question, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:But to sleep per chance to dream was.
Speaker A:Was part of his issue.
Speaker A:Will I, you know, even if I die, will I have these dreams?
Speaker A:But didn't mean to get into Shakespeare today.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know who you're talking to.
Speaker B:I'll be honest.
Speaker B:You're talking.
Speaker B:I don't know who you're talking to.
Speaker A:Just myself.
Speaker B:You're not talking to me.
Speaker A:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So anyway, my point there is this idea that Wright calls life after life, after death.
Speaker A:And again, I'll refer you to his book.
Speaker A:It's really great read.
Speaker A:Not too difficult.
Speaker A:It's heady, but it's not too difficult.
Speaker A:That really shows us what it is that God is working toward in Christ, that he's looking at restoring all of creation so that we are in that situation, that we were to be from the beginning at peace with one another, peace within ourselves, peace with creation, and ultimately peace with God himself.
Speaker A:So that's what I think we're working toward and what we trust.
Speaker A:When Paul says, I'm going to use this quotation, I hadn't planned to mention it several times, second Timothy, where he says, I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to keep that which I have entrusted against that day.
Speaker A:When he's talking about that day, he's talking about the Second Coming, right?
Speaker A:That even if I die here in prison, which I think he does, or he's beheaded at the end of that prison stay in 2 Timothy, even if I die, I trust that I am convinced.
Speaker A:He says, what I've entrusted to God, he is able to hold until the return of Jesus.
Speaker A:And that's what I would say, too.
Speaker A:I would say I have confidence in his ability to hold my life until the resurrection, till the final resurrection, whatever that intermediate state is.
Speaker A:Like the other thing, I don't believe in purgatory.
Speaker A:So technically, purgatory is a postmortem opportunity for salvation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the only reason I bring that.
Speaker B:Up is I know that's, you know, that's another idea that's floating out there.
Speaker B:Like, you know, I think it's just, what.
Speaker B:What does that middle state look like?
Speaker B:You know, and so I think, you know, for some, for some folks, that might lead them to that, that distinction.
Speaker A:And there are.
Speaker A:There are those.
Speaker A:I mean, C.S.
Speaker A:lewis seems to believe in some kind of purgatory and.
Speaker A:And his.
Speaker A:The Great Divorce.
Speaker A:That's the way he describes that chasm, I think, between Abraham's bosom, that separation from torment and comfort he talks about in the Great Divorce.
Speaker A:And he imagines, what would it be like?
Speaker A:I think he seems to believe in a purgatory.
Speaker A:Now, he does seem to think it's probably a bit more difficult to bridge that gap than some doctrines would allude to.
Speaker A:So there are people who believe in purgatory, obviously, even other than the Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker A:But the idea of purgatory is that That's a period where our sin, the remaining sin that we have is purged.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's done away with so that we can be in the presence of the Messiah.
Speaker A:And I believe that that's been taken care of because of the work of Christ.
Speaker A:I believe that that's done.
Speaker A:That work is done for those who've placed their trust in him.
Speaker A:So that's one of the reasons that I don't believe in purgatory.
Speaker A:And that in that sense.
Speaker A:Seems like there was one other thing I was going to say.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, I didn't deal with this passage.
Speaker A:Someday I need to deal with this passage.
Speaker A:But there's this other really weird passage in Peter's letters, both of his letters he refers to it, but this idea of we call sometimes the harrowing of hell, that Jesus went and preached to the spirits who are now in prison.
Speaker A:And that again, it's a weird passage.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's one of those.
Speaker A:If we take that as face value, it would seem to indicate that there are those who were able to hear the preaching of Jesus.
Speaker A:And according to some traditional doctrines that has to do with this period of time between Jesus death and his resurrection.
Speaker A:It's in the Apostles Creed, actually.
Speaker B:Descended into hell.
Speaker A:But it's a 4th century revision of the Apostles Creed.
Speaker A:So the earliest versions of the Apostles Creed does not have.
Speaker A:Have that, but which a lot of people don't realize.
Speaker A:But yeah, I, I understand those Peter passages a little bit different.
Speaker A:We should talk about that someday because I've, I've done some work on that.
Speaker A:I know, I know some stuff about that, but it's, it's a tough passage, you know, to think about.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, Brian, this is great.
Speaker A:Maybe, I mean.
Speaker B:Well, I mean it's, it's a.
Speaker B:You can only speak about what the text says.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:I think that that is something I want to make clear.
Speaker A:We can speculate, right.
Speaker A:And I have my opinions about a lot of things, but I think we need to be careful.
Speaker A:Part of what it means to handle the word of God correctly is to say what we can't say.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Here's how much we can say and here's the confidence we can have.
Speaker A:But as to.
Speaker A:Well, does Aunt Martha aware of what I'm doing?
Speaker A:Are they watching me when I go on my dates?
Speaker A:It's like I can't answer that question.
Speaker B:Oh, Aunt Martha always watching.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:It's probably better for you if you pretend like she can see you.
Speaker B:On your best behavior.
Speaker B:Well, Brian, I appreciate it.
Speaker B:This is always an Interesting topic.
Speaker B:One that, as you mentioned, it's like whenever someone is personally dealing with death, it's always the question of what should I understand about this?
Speaker B:And so I think we can have some confidence there.
Speaker B:Those who are in Christ are kept by Christ, whatever means that is.
Speaker B:But that we know that there will be a time to wake up when he returns in that second coming, and.
Speaker A:We'Ll be restored and renewed and have resurrection bodies, I believe.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, Bryan, thanks so much.
Speaker B:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you mentioned Surprised by Hope by Tom Wright.
Speaker B:So we'll have a link to that in the show notes.
Speaker B:You can also go to our website, thebiblebeaster.com we have a little suggested resources up there.
Speaker B:It's pretty crude, but you can get through there.
Speaker B:There's a link that you can go to Amazon.
Speaker B:You can find that book there.
Speaker B:We get a few cents from that as an affiliate for them.
Speaker B:But you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at the Bible Bistro.
Speaker B:And if you like this episode episode or found it interesting, please share or send us an email.
Speaker B:Let us know what you're thinking.
Speaker B:We'd love to, love to have a conversation with you talking about that bookstore.
Speaker A:We had a, had a listener recently ask us for recommendation and we put up a new book.
Speaker A:If you, if you guys want to ask us about commentaries or something that you want us to see, we could do our best to, to find something that would be helpful for you.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Well, Brian, thanks so much.
Speaker B:Appreciate it.
Speaker B:And we'll see you next Tuesday.
Speaker A:See you next time.
Speaker B:All right, bye.
