Episode 190
"The Unseen Realm" Part 2 - New Testament
In this episode, Ryan and Brian continue their discussion of Michael Heiser’s The Unseen Realm, shifting focus from the Old Testament to the New Testament. They explore Heiser’s “Deuteronomy 32 worldview,” which emphasizes spiritual beings, the Divine Council, and Jesus’ mission to reclaim authority over the nations. The hosts dive into key New Testament passages, connecting them to Heiser’s thesis about spiritual warfare, the role of demons, and the significance of Jesus’ actions in the Gospels.
Key Topics Discussed:
The Divine Council and Deuteronomy 32 Worldview
- Recap of Heiser’s concept of the Divine Council: spiritual beings in God’s presence, referenced in Psalms and Deuteronomy, who witness and participate in God’s dominion.
- Heiser’s “Deuteronomy 32 worldview” ties to Genesis 11 (Tower of Babel) and the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, where 70 nations are assigned to spiritual beings, while Israel remains under Yahweh’s direct authority.
- Discussion of how this worldview shapes the understanding of spiritual dynamics in both Testaments.
Jesus and the Twelve Disciples
- The hosts explore the symbolic significance of Jesus choosing 12 disciples, representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Mark 6:7-13).
- Jesus sends the 12 out with authority over impure spirits, a mission tied to preaching repentance and healing.
- Casting out demons is noted as unique to Jesus’ ministry, absent in early Judaism and the Old Testament, suggesting a spiritual confrontation stirred by the announcement of God’s kingdom.
The Sending of the 70 (or 72)
- In Luke 10:1, Jesus sends out 70 (or 72, depending on the manuscript) disciples, which Heiser connects to the 70 nations in Genesis 10.
- This act symbolizes Jesus’ authority over all nations, not just Israel, as a spiritual offensive against the powers assigned to those nations.
- The disciples return, reporting that “even the demons submit to your name” (Luke 10:17), prompting Jesus’ declaration: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18).
- Jesus emphasizes rejoicing in salvation (“your names are written in heaven”) over power over spirits.
Hades and Spiritual Warfare
- Discussion of Hades as both the underworld and a Greek god, referenced in Revelation 6:8 (the pale horse and rider named Death, followed by Hades).
- Connection to Matthew 16:13-20, where Jesus, at Caesarea Philippi (near Mount Bashan, a place of pagan worship), declares, “On this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
- Heiser interprets this as an offensive move: the church will break down the defensive “gates” of false gods, not merely resist them.
- The Transfiguration (Matthew 17) is also linked to this location, reinforcing Jesus’ authority over spiritual realms.
Paul’s Perspective on Spiritual Realities
- In 1 Corinthians 2:6-10, Paul speaks of “the rulers of this age” who did not understand God’s mystery, leading to Jesus’ crucifixion. Heiser suggests these rulers are spiritual beings, not just human authorities, defeated through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
- Ephesians 6:10-12 (the armor of God) emphasizes the battle against “spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms,” aligning with Heiser’s view of ongoing spiritual warfare.
- 1 Corinthians 10:18-21 connects idol worship to “demons” (Greek: daimonion), which could also mean “gods” in the Septuagint (Deuteronomy 32:17). Paul warns against participating in sacrifices to these entities.
1 Peter and the Imprisoned Spirits
- 1 Peter 3:18-22 discusses Jesus’ proclamation to “imprisoned spirits” after his resurrection, which Heiser ties to Genesis 6 and the Book of Enoch (fallen spiritual beings and the Nephilim).
- This proclamation signifies Jesus’ victory over these rebellious spirits, with his exaltation placing all “angels, authorities, and powers” in submission to him.
- Baptism is framed as spiritual warfare, a pledge of allegiance to Jesus’ side against evil forces.
- Cultural Context and Modern Misunderstandings
- The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding the first-century worldview, where idols and gods were part of daily life (e.g., statues in Corinth and Ephesus).
- Modern readers often misinterpret terms like “demon” due to Hollywood or later cultural influences (e.g., Dante’s Inferno).
- Heiser’s work encourages readers to rethink familiar passages through the lens of the original audience’s spiritual worldview.
Key Takeaways:
- Heiser’s The Unseen Realm provides explanatory power for New Testament passages by connecting them to Old Testament concepts like the Divine Council and the 70 nations.
- Jesus’ actions (choosing the 12, sending the 70, confronting Hades) are seen as a spiritual offensive to reclaim authority from rebellious spiritual beings.
- Paul and Peter’s writings reflect a worldview where spiritual forces, not just human ones, are at play, with Jesus’ death and resurrection as the decisive victory.
- The book challenges modern readers to reexamine scripture with the cultural and spiritual context of the biblical authors.
Resources Mentioned:
- The Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser
- Paul and the Resurrection of Israel by Jason Staples (potential future guest)
- The Bible Bistro website: thebiblebistro.com for book recommendations and ways to support the podcast.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome back to Ryan and Brian's Bible B Show.
Speaker B:I'm Ryan and that's Brian.
Speaker B:Say hi, Brian.
Speaker A:Hi, Brian.
Speaker B:Yes, I love that joke.
Speaker B:Every time, every week that you do that joke, it just gets weird.
Speaker A:It goes back to, hello, Gracie.
Speaker A:You know, so anyway, go ahead.
Speaker B:I have no idea what you're referring to.
Speaker A:Birds and Allen.
Speaker A:Never mind, I'm old.
Speaker A:Just forget it, you young whippersnapper.
Speaker A:And what is this?
Speaker A:This is the Bible Bistro.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:A podcast, a place.
Speaker B:It's a state of mind.
Speaker A:It's a place and a podcast and a state of mind.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And, you know, we used to reference this all the time where the bistro was.
Speaker B:And the bistro is online again.
Speaker B:You're at Bistro west and I'm at Bistro east, our respective bistros.
Speaker B:But we've come.
Speaker A:There is a tornado watch, I should mention.
Speaker A:I'm currently under a tornado watch in Bistro West.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:So if you run out a watch.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:We'll get it on video.
Speaker A:So that's the coolest thing.
Speaker B:If it does turn the laptop, I'll capture it and you go to a safe place.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:So anyway, we're back again.
Speaker B:And we're a day late.
Speaker B:Or another day late, but.
Speaker A:And a dollar short.
Speaker B:Mini sometimes.
Speaker B:But we're back.
Speaker B:It's busy season.
Speaker B:Some work's ramped up for me.
Speaker B:I've had some interesting projects as we've talk.
Speaker B:Talked about.
Speaker A:You got your class.
Speaker A:I'm reading, getting ready for class.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so all the things are happening, but we had to come back.
Speaker B:We just can't get enough of the Bistro.
Speaker A:Thank you for the good comments we've had about the first part of our discussion of Heiser's book on the Unseen Realm.
Speaker A:So this is the second one.
Speaker A:So we're excited about it.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're coming back to this today, so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So last week we talked about Michael Heiser's book, the Unseen Realm.
Speaker B:Talking about the.
Speaker B:Seems that the spiritual worldview of the Old Testament and that there's this.
Speaker B:Some things going on there.
Speaker B:But today we're going into the New Testament.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:That's correct.
Speaker A:That's why we decided to divide it up.
Speaker A:So go ahead and tell him.
Speaker A:You were talking.
Speaker A:The Divine Council is part of Heizer's worldview.
Speaker A:You want to say any more about that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the Divine council, again, the perspective here is that we see this and there's a psalm that kind of references this.
Speaker B:And as we look back in Deuteronomy, There seems to be some reference that there are spiritual beings that are in the presence of God with him, and that maybe they're not necessarily taking an advisory role, but sometimes that they're there witnessing what God is doing.
Speaker B:But there seems to be some language within the Old Testament and some allusions to things that there are spiritual beings that are participating with Yahweh in his dominion of the world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Did I say that accurately?
Speaker A:Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker A:Heiser talks about.
Speaker A:He uses the term Deuteronomy 32 worldview, because for him, Deuteronomy is 32 is a big deal.
Speaker A:He understands Deuteronomy 32 to be a reference back to the account we find in Genesis, chapter 11 of the tower of Babel and this rebellion.
Speaker A:And so God kind of scatters the peoples.
Speaker A:And, and we have in chapter 10 of the book of Genesis, this table of nations.
Speaker A:There's 70 nations that are mentioned there.
Speaker A:And so Heiser kind of ties this all together and he believes that these spiritual beings are given a certain amount of authority over these various nations.
Speaker A:Now, Israel belongs to Yahweh, but these other nations belong to the other gods.
Speaker A:And so that's kind of the basis for his worldview.
Speaker A:Now, I mentioned last week, one of the things I like about it is that there are some passages that it helps us to understand.
Speaker A:We talked about some Old Testament passages last week.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:This week, as you mentioned, we're going to primarily be in the New Testament and we've just chosen some.
Speaker A:Again, it's a big book.
Speaker A:It's one I recommend reading.
Speaker A:There's a lot going on in it, but the, the first.
Speaker A:So we just pulled out some of the things that we found particularly interesting.
Speaker A:One of the things I found interesting, I mentioned that idea of the 70 nations.
Speaker A:So this is in Jesus, you might remember, in the Gospel of mark calls the 12.
Speaker A:And it's pretty common for us to say that the 12 are a reference to the 12 tribes of Israel.
Speaker A:And, and, and this idea that, that Jesus is symbolically reconstituting kind of a new community of people based on this idea of the 12 tribes.
Speaker A:I've just been reading a book.
Speaker A:I'm hoping.
Speaker A:We're hoping to get that author on here talking about how important those 12 tribes are to the New Testament too, because of course, we have the return from exile of Judah and Benjamin in the Old Testament.
Speaker A:But then there's these other 10 tribes, the ones that are scattered by the Assyrians that we don't ever see return from exile.
Speaker A:And this author Makes.
Speaker A:Makes a big deal.
Speaker A:Jason Staples, we're hoping to get him on the podcast at some point.
Speaker A:Just finished his book last night and.
Speaker A:And actually ties in some of this stuff as well.
Speaker A:But the.
Speaker A:The idea of Jesus choosing the 12 is pretty commonly understood to be a reference to this idea of the 12 tribes.
Speaker A:But there is this account in the Gospels where Jesus sends these 12 out, these 12 apostles.
Speaker A:And so I'm just going to read part of this.
Speaker A:This is in Mark, chapter seven.
Speaker A:Starting in verse seven, it says, they worshiped me in vain.
Speaker A:Their teachings are merely human rules.
Speaker A:Wait, I'm in the wrong place.
Speaker A:What did I do?
Speaker A:I wrote something down wrong.
Speaker A:So I apologize.
Speaker A:I think it should be Matthew.
Speaker A:But anyway, Jesus sends out the 12.
Speaker A:It is Matthew.
Speaker A:I wanted to read this too.
Speaker A:I apologize.
Speaker B:I'll get Matthew up here.
Speaker A:I think I've got it now.
Speaker A:No, that's not it either.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I have no idea where I'm talking about.
Speaker A:But anyway, the 12 are sent out someplace.
Speaker A:If you can find that, that would be great.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And Jesus gives them a command to go out and to preach in these vil.
Speaker A:He gives them a certain amount of authority.
Speaker A:Did you find it yet?
Speaker B:No, I'm working on it.
Speaker B:Keep talking, keep talking.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And we're eventually.
Speaker A:I'm eventually wanting to get to this other passage.
Speaker A:This was really kind of just background and so I meant to talk about the 12 first and then we'll talk about what Jesus does after this.
Speaker A:Do you have it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Okay, we'll just skip it for now and maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe we'll do this another day.
Speaker A:Okay, so what happens then is after Jesus sends out the 12, then we find him at a later time sending out 70.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And so here's what we have in Luke, chapter 10, verse 1, and there's some explanation I have to do here.
Speaker A:This is quite a lengthy passage, actually.
Speaker A: is what the NIV: Speaker A:Now, I need to stop here for just a moment and I need to say that there are two times in this chapter where 72 is mentioned.
Speaker A:But there is alternate readings in other texts that have 70.
Speaker A:And the witnesses are about evenly divided.
Speaker A:And so the question really becomes, is the 70 being sent out or 72?
Speaker A:It's important for Heiser's thesis that it's 70 being sent out.
Speaker A:And I'll go ahead and say, for what argues for that is the number of times 70 is used in other places throughout the Scripture and that seems to be the reason that 70 may be the original.
Speaker A:But anyway, we'll leave that for right now, maybe come back and talk about another time after this.
Speaker A:The Lord appointed 70 others, sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
Speaker A:Now, let me stop there and say we had the 12 that were sent out and they represent the tribes of Israel.
Speaker A:Well, Heiser's thesis is the reason Jesus chooses 70 is because of these 70 nations that are mentioned in the table of nations in Genesis chapter 10.
Speaker A:And this is kind of Jesus symbolically sending out his followers into the nations, right?
Speaker A:Not just that he's come to the Jewish people, but he's now sending them out to the nations in a symbolic way to again reassert his authority over these places.
Speaker A:And he told them, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Speaker A:Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send the workers into his harvest field.
Speaker A:See, I'm going you out like lambs among wolves.
Speaker A:Do not take a purse or bag or sandals, and do not greet anyone on the road.
Speaker A:When you enter a house, first say peace to this house.
Speaker A:If someone who promotes peace, or this is the old translation, this is, if a man of peace is there, then your peace will return to you.
Speaker A:Stay there eating and drinking whatever they give you for the worker deserves his wages.
Speaker A:Did not move around from house to house.
Speaker A:When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered you, heal the sick who are there and tell them the kingdom of God has come to you.
Speaker A:And this is a big deal that Jesus is announcing this kingdom and now he's appointing these other workers to go and say, God is now reasserting or acknowledging his rule over the nations.
Speaker A:Now, right?
Speaker A:There was a period of time where Israel was his and he placed these spiritual beings over.
Speaker A:He's the one who's the ultimate authority.
Speaker A:But now he is saying, the kingdom of God has come.
Speaker A:But when you enter a house, he says, or town and are not welcome, go into its streets and say, even the dust of your town we wipe off from our feet is a warning to you.
Speaker A:But be sure of this.
Speaker A:The kingdom of God has come near.
Speaker A:I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than that town.
Speaker A:And then here's a really interesting comment that he says that is a bit different when we think about it from Hyjer's perspective.
Speaker A:He says, woe to you, Chorazon.
Speaker A:Woe to you, Bethsaida, which are both Galilean villages that Jesus and his disciples spent a deal of time in for if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon.
Speaker A:Now, Tyre and Sidon, you might remember, are these cities up to the north?
Speaker A:These nation states up to the north.
Speaker A:We talked about how nothing good comes from the north.
Speaker A:If you look in the Book of Isaiah, there's all kinds of.
Speaker A:Well, in Jeremiah as well, and Ezekiel, there's all kinds of prophecies against Tyre and side.
Speaker A:Particularly Tyre because of its pride.
Speaker A:You might remember we talked about princes last week a little bit.
Speaker A:And in the Old Testament, the Prince of Tyre is referred to, which is the passage where we get the name Lucifer actually through the Latin.
Speaker A:We've talked about that one before.
Speaker A:But this idea of Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago if they had seen the miracles you've done.
Speaker A:So basically he's saying these Galilean villages, these four nations, would have repented a long time ago if they'd seen the things that were done in you.
Speaker A:But this is verse 14.
Speaker A:It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
Speaker A:And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens?
Speaker A:No, you will go down to.
Speaker A:And we're going to talk about Hades a lot today.
Speaker A:Hades, the grave, or this underworld.
Speaker A:We'll talk about.
Speaker A:Whoever listens to you, listens to me.
Speaker A:Whoever rejects you, rejects me.
Speaker A:But whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Speaker A:So that's Jesus sending out the 72 or the 70.
Speaker A:So the 70 returned with joy and listen to what their first thing is, Lord, even the demons.
Speaker A:And we're going to come back and we're going to talk about that Greek word Diomion or diamond Daimonion, Sorry, that.
Speaker A:That the word demon comes from.
Speaker A:Even the demons submit to your name.
Speaker A:Now, that's an interesting.
Speaker A:That's an interesting thing for them to come back and say, right?
Speaker A:That even.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, and he sends them on this mission, and that's their first thing.
Speaker A:And then look at Jesus.
Speaker A:Reply, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Speaker A:I've given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy.
Speaker A:Nothing will harm you.
Speaker A:However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
Speaker A:We talked last week about how some of this idea of the snakes might have to do with these spiritual beings.
Speaker A:And you could imagine scorpions in the.
Speaker A:These other enemies being a part of that as well.
Speaker A:At that time, Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, I praise you, Father.
Speaker A:Lord of heaven and earth.
Speaker A:Because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children.
Speaker A:Yes, Father.
Speaker A:For this is what you were pleased to do.
Speaker A:All these things have been committed to me by my Father.
Speaker A:No one knows who the Son is except the Father.
Speaker A:And no one knows who the Father is except the Son.
Speaker A:Except.
Speaker A:And those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Speaker A:Now hold on to that, because we're going to come back to that.
Speaker A:Hold on to this idea of the demons, because we're going to come back to that a little bit later as well.
Speaker A:But it's really interesting that this.
Speaker A:If the 70 is a reference back to that table of nations in Genesis 10, then Jesus is basically saying, here's the frontal assault against these nations that have risen up against Israel.
Speaker A:Of course, you have all that kind of language in the Old Testament as we looked at a little bit last week.
Speaker A:Zechariah, Ezekiel, Isaiah.
Speaker A:The nations are those who come up against God's people.
Speaker A:Also, I'll just mention this.
Speaker A:And again, this is kind of setting up some things we'll talk about later.
Speaker A:The 10 northern tribes are scattered into the nations.
Speaker A:That's where they find themselves.
Speaker A:So that's the first thing I wanted to mention.
Speaker A:Even though I messed up that idea of the.
Speaker B:12, I did find it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's marked 6, 7 through 13, not 7, 7 through 13.
Speaker B:Okay, you better read it here real quick.
Speaker A:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker A:I'm going to change my notes.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so then Jesus went around teaching from village to village, calling the 12 to him.
Speaker B:He began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:These were his instructions.
Speaker B:Take nothing for the journey except a staff.
Speaker B:No bread, no bag, no money in your belts.
Speaker B:Wear sandals, but not an extra shirt.
Speaker B:Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.
Speaker B:And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.
Speaker B:Then they went out and preached that people should repent.
Speaker B:They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I wanted to mention that idea of the 12.
Speaker A:It's interesting.
Speaker A:I've known this since even when I was in my master's program, that this idea of casting out demons is both something we don't see in later Judaism.
Speaker A:We don't see this in the.
Speaker A:Or I should say early Judaism.
Speaker A:We don't see this in the Old Testament.
Speaker A:We don't see this in the early church practice.
Speaker A:And so it's really interesting that it's centered around the ministry of Jesus and Heiser takes that view, that it's really when the kingdom is announced is what stirs up, if you will, this.
Speaker A:This kind of opposition to him.
Speaker A:So we have the 12, the impure spirits, the diamond.
Speaker A:Diamond.
Speaker A:I meant to practice this more Daimonion in the idea of demons.
Speaker A:And so then we have the 70 sent out as well.
Speaker A:I did want to.
Speaker A:We're going to talk about Hades a lot here.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And it's interesting.
Speaker A:This is something.
Speaker A:And I don't.
Speaker A:We haven't even talked about this yet, but just.
Speaker A:I finished Staples book yesterday and this is one of the things that he mentions is Hades, of course, was a name of a Greek God that was.
Speaker A:That was the name for the God of the underworld, right?
Speaker A:And there's myths that would have been before the time of Christ that this, this was mentioned.
Speaker A:Look at Revelation chapter six.
Speaker A:I had never.
Speaker A:I'd never thought about this before.
Speaker A:But this is something that was just mentioned in this book that I finished last night talking about the four horsemen.
Speaker A:It says, then the Lord opened the fourth seal.
Speaker A:I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, come.
Speaker A:And I looked and there before me was a pale horse.
Speaker A:So we talked about the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Speaker A:We've got another thing.
Speaker A:We've talked about this.
Speaker A:And its writer was named Death.
Speaker A:And he mentioned in Greek, that's Thanatos.
Speaker A:That word sometimes is capitalized and used to be a proper name for a.
Speaker A:For a Greek God.
Speaker A:And Hades, Hades the grave was following not far behind in my niv.
Speaker A:Again, both of those are capitalized.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily in the Greek.
Speaker A:But you see, I'm saying those could be proper names of gods.
Speaker A:And then Staples went on to say, we have that rider on the red horse that's given a sword that basically takes away peace.
Speaker A:And he said, even though he's not named, that's a lot like the God Mars or Aries that we see in this period of time as well.
Speaker A:So just an interesting thought and again, I just want to mention this.
Speaker A:We said this last week.
Speaker A:We probably should have started by saying this this week.
Speaker A:One of the things that Heiser is talking about is trying to understand this from the point of view, from the worldview of the people who were.
Speaker A:Who were writing these things and living in this time.
Speaker A:Even though we might say, well, we don't.
Speaker A:We don't believe in those kind of things, this is, this is their perspective.
Speaker A:And so it's interesting for us to think through, to pay attention to.
Speaker A:But anyway, I just thought I would mention this.
Speaker A:Like I said, we hadn't mentioned that.
Speaker A:Since we're in Revelation, let's look at one more passage.
Speaker A:This is in Revelation, chapter 12, and we're going to talk a little bit about.
Speaker A:We mentioned this last week, that Heiser sometimes sees these stars as these spiritual beings, as stars, because the people in the ancient world would have seen him in this way.
Speaker A:I made reference to this passage last week, I think, But Revelation, chapter 12, verse 3 and 4, this is where we have this image of the woman who has the 12 stars in her crown and she's giving birth.
Speaker A:But then there's this dragon, verse 3, another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon.
Speaker A:And later, of course, we find out that this is equated to that serpent in Genesis chapter three in the book of Revelation that we find that mentioned an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its head.
Speaker A:Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
Speaker A:And that's often seen and often understood as a reference to the idea of fallen angels.
Speaker A:You know, these, again, these spiritual beings that have come to the earth.
Speaker A:Kaiser would not use the term angel because he would say angel has to.
Speaker B:Do with a spiritual being, with a.
Speaker A:Task, with these spiritual beings that were cast down.
Speaker A:And of course, the dragon was getting ready to attack.
Speaker A:This child who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter is the way that it's described.
Speaker A:Quotation from Book of Psalms but then down in this same passage, we have another reference that we saw in Daniel, chapter 10.
Speaker A:It says in verse seven, A war broke out in heaven.
Speaker A:Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was not strong enough.
Speaker A:They lost their place in heaven.
Speaker A:The great dragon was hurled down.
Speaker A:That ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
Speaker A:He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
Speaker A:So, you know, one of the things we need to make clear, we talk a lot about that these other.
Speaker A:If these are other gods, that's what we're understanding in this worldview.
Speaker A:They are not equivalent to Yahweh.
Speaker A:They're not equivalent to the Lord God and the Creator of heaven and Earth.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And the other interesting thing, there's a new book I'm going to read that I just got a reference to yesterday in this book.
Speaker A:One of the points that it makes is these battles, and we've talked about this before, when we looked at the book of Revelation.
Speaker A:These battles are not close contest.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:These are very one sided affairs.
Speaker A:You have, you have Michael, you have the archangels, you have the spiritual beings that are a part of God's counsel attacking these evil spirits and, and, and they're able to wipe them out immediately.
Speaker A:There is no contest when it, when it comes to that.
Speaker A:So anyway, I've talked a lot thoughts on that.
Speaker A:Any, anything you want to add to that or.
Speaker B:No, I, you know, I'd never, I think I, I never thought about, you know, until recently someone I had a conversation with about this concept of the demons and casting out demons.
Speaker B:All that stuff doesn't really appear in the Old Testament and we don't see it in Jewish writings and so forth in that it seems to be a New Testament concept.
Speaker B:But tying it together with Heizer's premise that there's some, that there is something that's been stirred up with Jesus coming here, that there is something, you know, I always, you know, I kind of thought about this, is that we'd moved in.
Speaker B:The Old Testament was very much about a physical place and so keeping the demons or whatever the out on the outside.
Speaker B:But now with Jesus coming, it was a spiritual kingdom and so like no place was safe anymore for these demons to hide.
Speaker A:Well, it's even the other way around.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's almost an offensive, right?
Speaker A:It's the war, it's the war in heaven where, where these followers of the Messiah are being sent out into all the world.
Speaker A:And you think about all that language about evangelism, go into all nations, right.
Speaker A:Preaching and making disciples of all nations.
Speaker A:So it's an offensive, this idea that the followers of Jesus are on the offensive now and they're establishing the kingdom, expanding the kingdom, which is language we use and are comfortable with.
Speaker A:But when you think of it in the spiritual realm, it kind of gives it a different aspect that we don't always think about.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:One more passage.
Speaker A:I want to.
Speaker A:I'd forgotten this.
Speaker A:I think I had this Deuteronomy, chapter 4, verse 19.
Speaker A:And this was just something again.
Speaker A:I'm springing this on you too, Ryan.
Speaker A:You know, I like to do that from time to time, just spring things unexpectedly.
Speaker B:I've already pulled it up.
Speaker A:Okay, go ahead and read that.
Speaker A:Just that verse.
Speaker A:And there's more in that larger context, but just read that verse for me if you would.
Speaker B:And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars, all the heavenly array, do not be enticed into Bowing down to them and worshiping the Lord.
Speaker B:Worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Speaker A:Isn't that interesting?
Speaker A:So that goes along with that.
Speaker B:Deuteronomy, 30 stars have been apportioned to the nations.
Speaker A:And again, if the stars are these spiritual beings.
Speaker A:But notice the other part of it is, don't.
Speaker A:Why would you be enticed to worship them?
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a specific.
Speaker A:There's a specific injunction for you not to bow down to the starry host here, basically.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I just.
Speaker A:Again, it's one of those things that maybe a month ago I would have read right by and never thought about.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And I do want to come back and talk about.
Speaker A:I think Heiser has another really interesting idea in relation to what we were talking about, the casting out of demons and this surrounding the time of Jesus.
Speaker A:I want to come back to that a little bit later.
Speaker A:There was a passage you mentioned specifically.
Speaker A:We already talked about Hades or Hades a little bit.
Speaker A:And of course, you know, again, he's the God of the underworld.
Speaker A:There are all kinds of Greek myths about him.
Speaker A:And so here's a passage you found particularly interesting.
Speaker A:Do you want to read that or do you want me to have.
Speaker B:Yeah, let me pull it up here real quick.
Speaker A:I'll let you talk about this when you're.
Speaker B:It just was.
Speaker B:It was very interesting to me.
Speaker B:When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, who do people say the Son of man is?
Speaker B:They replied, some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
Speaker B:But what about you?
Speaker B:He asked, who do you say I am?
Speaker B:Simon Peter answered, you are the Messiah, the son of the living God.
Speaker B:Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Speaker B:And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gate of Hades will not overcome it.
Speaker B:I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Speaker B:Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Speaker B:Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Speaker B:So, you know, I think what was really interesting to me about this passage, as Heizer kind of pointed out, is where the location of where they're at during this encounter.
Speaker B:And it talks about there being a high place.
Speaker B:And as you.
Speaker B:I think you mentioned this last week, that mountains are really important for Heizer, where we See, like there are events that are taking place on certain mountains.
Speaker B:And what is the mountain that he says that they're on here?
Speaker B:Do you remember?
Speaker A:Well, it's up to the north.
Speaker A:It's that up to the north.
Speaker A:And it's related to Bashan in the Ugaritic language, Bashan.
Speaker B:And so in archeology, as he looked up there, that this mountain, Bashan up there was a place where there was a lot of worship of different gods up in this place.
Speaker B:And so how Heiser has looked at this is he sees, upon this rock I will build my kingdom is that it is upon this mountain where these other gods have been worshiped.
Speaker B:Like, I am going to.
Speaker B:Upon this rock, I'm going to build my kingdom upon this place where these other Elohim have been worshiped and exalted.
Speaker B:I'm going to take that over.
Speaker B:And Heiser points this out and I think this is the thing that really got me.
Speaker B:He talked about.
Speaker B:And the gates of what is he.
Speaker A:Hades.
Speaker B:The gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Speaker B:And Heiser points this out.
Speaker B:He's like, what are gates for?
Speaker B:They're defensive measures, like to keep people out.
Speaker B:And so he sees like, well, this isn't about, about a defensive, like, you're going to be the defense, it's you're the offense.
Speaker B:The gates of Hades will be broken down.
Speaker B:The gates of these gods will be broken down.
Speaker A:We often think about the gates of hell like, oh, we're cowering back behind the walls and we're, we, you know, hoping that, that the powers of hell don't come in on us.
Speaker A:When really what Jesus is saying is we're going to be the ones, you know, that their gates cannot stand.
Speaker A:The kingdom is going to expand into these areas that have been controlled by the false gods.
Speaker A:And I'd heard that kind of thing before.
Speaker A:In fact, I think I've mentioned to you before, I may have mentioned on the podcast when, when I worked down the Dominican Republic, there was one of the leaders down there named Tim.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And sometimes you'd say, what are we going to do today, Tim?
Speaker A:He said, oh, we're just going to be kicking down the gates of hell.
Speaker A:You know, we're going, yeah, we're expanding the kingdom into these areas that have previously been controlled by the forces of evil.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so it's an interesting idea.
Speaker A:And even Hades, I believe, was, was specifically one of the gods that was mentioned as being worshiped up in this particular area.
Speaker A:There was actually a temple or a shrine, a high place that was to these Gods.
Speaker A:And Jesus maybe intentionally takes them up there and says, who do you think that I am?
Speaker A:And basically, this is that high point in the Gospels where, you know, well, we believe you're the Christ.
Speaker A:You know, Peter, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Speaker A:And then he's like, this has not been revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Speaker A:And we're going to come.
Speaker A:I want to come back to that in just a minute, too.
Speaker A:Anything else that you wanted to mention.
Speaker B:In regard to that?
Speaker B:Shortly, Heiser brings us up shortly thereafter.
Speaker B:He believes in the transfiguration is happening on.
Speaker B:We don't have the exact name of the mountain, but he sees this.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So Heiser sees this high mountain that takes the transfiguration of Jesus, which takes place in chapter 17.
Speaker B:We just read from chapter 16 that transfiguration takes place and we see this.
Speaker B:Jesus is glorified and his face is shining and all this stuff is on the mountain where Hades would have been worshipped, would have been considered the gates of Hades.
Speaker B:So I just, I thought that was a really interesting.
Speaker B:I had not, you know, I know you're much more readed than I.
Speaker B:I'm saying it even wrong just to be.
Speaker B:But, you know, when I had always read the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Speaker B:The way that, that language rolls out, like, for me, it seems like the gates of Hades are the offensive, not the defensive.
Speaker B:And so, I mean, this is translation and so forth.
Speaker B:And so for me to kind of reorient my brain and kind of going, why this mountain for the transfiguration?
Speaker B:Why this statement?
Speaker B:Like, what do I think about when he's saying, upon this rock?
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:We said this in the first episode, some explanatory power.
Speaker B:Like, for me, it's kind of going like, okay, this is.
Speaker B:There's a little.
Speaker B:The neurons are making some different connections here and firing a little different as I read.
Speaker A:Well, you know, I was just thinking about this last week.
Speaker A:You know, some of the best books you read are the ones that when you read them, you know, you're never going to be able to look at a passage again exactly the same way.
Speaker A:And again, I want to be clear here.
Speaker A:We're not necessarily saying everything Heiser says is exactly right.
Speaker A:I mentioned last week this Old Testament scholar we heard on the, on the.
Speaker A:Another interview who said, you know, you know, I'm left a lot of time saying, well, maybe, maybe, but I'm not, you know, not totally convinced.
Speaker A:But there is a lot of these things That I think do help give us a little bit of depth of understanding.
Speaker A:Here's one.
Speaker A:So I mentioned that this idea of, of seeing passages differently.
Speaker A:Here's one that I had never, you know, you said I'm well read.
Speaker A:But I had never thought of this particular passage in the way that Heiser presents it.
Speaker A:And I'm going to actually, it's First Corinthians chapter two.
Speaker A:I'm going to actually talk about it first the way that I would think, you know, I would have thought about this before I read Heizer's book.
Speaker A:So Paul says this.
Speaker A:We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age.
Speaker A:I'll come back to that in a minute.
Speaker A:The rulers of this age are coming to nothing.
Speaker A:No, we declare God's wisdom a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
Speaker A:I'll go ahead and stop.
Speaker A:And it is very, very.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it's almost universal that when Paul uses the word mystery, what we understand is something that was previously hidden that has now been revealed.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:In other words, it's no longer a mystery.
Speaker A:It's something that was hid in the past is now revealed for our sake.
Speaker A:We declare God's wisdom a mystery that's been hidden that God destined for our glory before time began.
Speaker A:Now listen to this.
Speaker A:None of the rulers of this age understood it.
Speaker A:For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Speaker A:Now I'd always taken that to being.
Speaker A:Well, if they would have understood the prophecies and they would understood who Jesus is, they would not have crucified him.
Speaker A:But Heiser's take on this is different.
Speaker A:And he actually, here's the explanatory power in this one.
Speaker A:He actually says it has to do with the reason that it's not until after the fact that we could put together these messianic prophecies.
Speaker A:He would say that that was an intentional case.
Speaker A:So we have Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah, who was going to be this king and who was going to rule and who's going to have an eternal kingdom.
Speaker A:But then we also have these other passages that are about a suffering servant, like in Isaiah, about the one who's going to be crushed about, you know, this idea of the one who's going to die.
Speaker A:And, and he says those are not put together.
Speaker A:In fact, he says we never see the, the idea of Messiah in those passages and it's not put together.
Speaker A:Until after the, the death, burial and resurrection.
Speaker A:And he says the reason for that is, is that it's the way that God essentially defeats these forces of evil, that he, they, they, he defeats them not through a frontal assault by the Messiah, right?
Speaker A:It's not through some kind of military battle, the Messiah, but it's, it's what Gorman, Michael Gorman would call the cruciform God, you know, that, that Christ takes on, becomes nothing, takes the form of a servant and then dies and is raised from the dead.
Speaker A:And in that is where he defeats death and the grave, Thanatos and Hades, right?
Speaker A:He defeats them in his resurrection, not in, not in some kind of frontal army assault.
Speaker A:And I found that really fascinating that, that so he would understand the rulers of this age to be those spiritual beings, you know, and Paul uses those kind of phrases in a different way.
Speaker A:I'd always taken that to be kind of, oh, the, you know, the Romans would not have put Jesus to death if they would have recognized who he is.
Speaker A:But this is saying what the way he's taking it is instead the way Paul other times talks about these spiritual forces.
Speaker A:And I want to use a couple of other passages to talk about this.
Speaker A:Let me read it again, thinking of it that way.
Speaker A:We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature.
Speaker A:Not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age.
Speaker A:So not thinking about kings, but thinking about the ones who were the spiritual rulers over this present age who are coming to nothing.
Speaker A:No, we declare God's wisdom a mystery that's been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
Speaker A:None of the rulers of this age understood, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Speaker A:So basically saying if they would have understood how God was going to defeat them, they would not have.
Speaker A:The plan would not have unfolded in that way.
Speaker A:However, as it is written, no eye is seen, no ear is heard, no human mind is conceived.
Speaker A:The things that God has prepared for those who love him, these are the things that God has revealed to us by his spirit.
Speaker A:And I find that a really interesting concept and an idea, and I was actually applying it.
Speaker A:I mentioned Staples already once, Jason Staples in his book what Is It?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Paul and the Resurrection of Israel.
Speaker A:And I thought about it in the same way because basically there's a mystery there as well.
Speaker A:For Paul, it's the idea of why were the Gentiles included?
Speaker A:And his conclusion.
Speaker A:And I'll say this very simply and hopefully again, we'll get this fleshed out Much, much later in a much fuller way.
Speaker A:But the way that all of Israel was brought back from exile and was restored was through the Gentile mission.
Speaker A:In other words, as the Gentiles were.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, the ten tribes were scattered into the nations, then they became a part of the nations.
Speaker A:And so it's in the Gentile mission and bringing in the nations, preaching the gospel in all nations, is the way that that restoration of Israel takes place.
Speaker A:Again, kind of a mystery that God would have hidden, the way that it was going to take place, and a way that the kingdom then becomes dominant and has authority over these domains that previously had belonged to these other spiritual beings.
Speaker A:Just a very similar parallel there in that idea.
Speaker A:Let me use one more passage from Paul.
Speaker A:And then I think there was a passage from one Peter you wanted to talk about a little bit.
Speaker A:This is Ephesians 6.
Speaker A:And I just want to point out here that this is the example of Paul talking about these spiritual things in a way that are different than we normally think of, you know, ways that we don't often put into practice in a way probably even we should.
Speaker A:So this is that very famous passage about the armor of God.
Speaker A:We know that passage very well.
Speaker A:But listen again, in this worldview, how he mentions this, finally be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
Speaker A:For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil, even the heavenly realms.
Speaker A:And I guess I would say, what have we been talking about if we haven't been talking about the forces of evil in the spiritual realm, the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms?
Speaker A:Right, that's.
Speaker A:That's a good description of what Heiser describes is taking place as we understand these scriptures.
Speaker A:So just a point that Paul seems to have had this kind of a thought regarding these spiritual beings and the way that they were forces of evil.
Speaker A:In fact, in a minute after First Peter, we'll talk about his idea of those who bow to idols, for example, you know, and sing it that way.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:There's a lot going on here.
Speaker B:You know, I think it's good for us to think, you know, as you referenced here, we've talked so much about that we're not battling against flesh and blood, but against.
Speaker B:And it's like we hold on to part of it.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, you know, but it's like then we get to some Other stuff we're like, yeah, I mean, but no, we're definitely battling against these dark spirits.
Speaker B:But that I'm not so sure.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think it's really important to keep that in mind.
Speaker B:I think that's one thing I appreciate about this book, is that as you talked about, these are possibilities.
Speaker B:This is a way for us to think, but almost to try to rewire our brains a little bit to think about the spiritual reality that's happening here.
Speaker B:And not that there's just a reality, but that the reality might be in the words that have been spoken to us too.
Speaker B:Also from.
Speaker B:From the apostles.
Speaker A:How would Paul have seen this?
Speaker A:Yeah, how would he?
Speaker A:What would his worldview have been rather than from a modern.
Speaker A:You know, he was not, you know, he didn't have a telescope, he wasn't an astronomer.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker B:Well, and.
Speaker B:And that oftentimes we always read it as flat as not a spirituality.
Speaker B:Like, well, Paul's just expounding on this and this is.
Speaker B:This is what he means, but like that there actually might be something more happening in the text that ties it to this.
Speaker B:So for me, I think one of the hardest verses, not hardest verses, but a weird verse that I think we struggle with is First Peter.
Speaker B:And Heiser talks a little about this.
Speaker B:I mean, he's talking about even baptism as spiritual warfare.
Speaker B:So let me read this here.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous, for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
Speaker B:He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit.
Speaker B:After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits, to those who were disobedient.
Speaker B:Long ago, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built in it, only a few people ate in.
Speaker B:All were saved through water.
Speaker B:And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also.
Speaker B:Not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience before God.
Speaker B:It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Speaker B:So, you know, Heiser's point here is, you know, who are these imprisoned spirits?
Speaker B:Well, this.
Speaker B:And Heiser, you know, there's been a lot of hand wringing over who are these imprisoned spirits?
Speaker B:When did this happen?
Speaker B:Heiser sees this as a callback to Genesis 6.
Speaker B:You know, that again, that there's these fallen spiritual beings that are.
Speaker B:Have had children, the nephilim, and that this is, you know, they're imprisoned.
Speaker B:Then this is called back to the Book of Enoch as well.
Speaker B:You know, the Book of Enoch kind of talks about this and that when Jesus is resurrected again, this kind of ties into the First Corinthians, that now you've been defeated and Jesus is going to proclaim to these fallen spiritual beings like it's over.
Speaker B:Like it's an announcement.
Speaker B:You were cast down before, but it's over, over now.
Speaker B:Like you've you.
Speaker B:The total destruction here.
Speaker B:And then you wrapped it in with verse 22 here about Jesus's exaltation that he's gone into heaven and is at God's right hand with angels, authorities and powers.
Speaker B:You know, we talked about the dark powers in submission to him.
Speaker B:Yeah, that, that, that in this.
Speaker B:That all these powers, wherever they might be, you know, the spirits long ago that went against God, it's all in submission to him now.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, that idea of powers and authorities and.
Speaker A:Or angels powers and authorities or angels, authorities and powers.
Speaker A:Those are.
Speaker A:Words are so familiar.
Speaker A:We just kind of glance, you know, we don't even pay attention to them.
Speaker A:But again, I think thinking through this lens just open some things up and makes us at least slow down and pay attention to.
Speaker A:To what's being said here.
Speaker A:That, yeah, it was.
Speaker A:But it was his death and resurrection that.
Speaker A:That placed him in that highest part.
Speaker A:Again, Philippians chapter two would be another example of that, that, you know, therefore he was exalted to the highest place because of his submitting to death and, and through the power of the resurrection.
Speaker A:This is what exalts him to that highest place.
Speaker A:To the, to the throne of God.
Speaker A:Yeah, interesting stuff.
Speaker A:And you mentioned baptism is spiritual warfare.
Speaker A:This idea that there is a way in which we are.
Speaker A:The way Heiser puts it, he says in our baptism, we're saying this is the side that we're taking.
Speaker A:We're on the side of Jesus the Messiah, not on the side of these forces of evil.
Speaker A:He mentioned that some traditions, and even the tradition that I'm a part of right now, that I'm.
Speaker A:That I'm working in, a part of our baptismal formula is to renounce the powers of evil.
Speaker A:Do you renounce the powers of.
Speaker A:Of the devil and evil?
Speaker A:You know, and, and basically it, it is saying I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm no longer a part of this realm.
Speaker A:I'm putting myself within the kingdom of God and, and placing myself firmly on the side of the Messiah and trusting in his deliverance from, from these powers.
Speaker B:Of evil, like a pledge of allegiance, almost.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Very similar.
Speaker A:A little.
Speaker A:A little Matthew Bates reference there.
Speaker B:So, yeah, all right.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so you've got one more verse that, you know, you wanted to talk a little bit more about this.
Speaker A:This kind of brings it full circle.
Speaker A:So I just, I just sent you an article earlier today, so I don't expect you to have read this yet.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But it's a real.
Speaker A:Again, I haven't completely digested it, but it's taking this kind of worldview and applying it to a different passage, this one in First Corinthians, chapter 10.
Speaker A:Paul, of course, talks about idols quite a bit in First Corinthians.
Speaker A:And again, here's maybe the thing that we need to really get ahold of.
Speaker A:Do you remember when Paul.
Speaker A:This was in Ephesus.
Speaker A:Remember when Paul went to Ephesus and he started preaching and, and so many people became converts that the people who were making the silver idols got upset with them?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:We think about idols and we think about gods, and they're not a part of our daily lives.
Speaker A:I was just up in Chicago at the Art Institute.
Speaker A:My wife and I and my son and his girlfriend went up there for a couple of days, and we went to the Art Institute.
Speaker A:And there's right now some marbles from Italy that haven't been.
Speaker A:And they're all mythological, but so many of them are from the first and second century.
Speaker A:And one of the displays that they had just talked about the number of statues, idols, let's call them, that would have been around all these cities.
Speaker A:This was around your everyday life.
Speaker A:It did a couple things for me.
Speaker A:One is, I've always had students say, well, how do people know these stories?
Speaker A:And there's so many of these stories that are depicted in these statues over and over again.
Speaker A:But the other thing is, these were gods.
Speaker A:These were real idols that would have been surrounding your everyday life.
Speaker A:And they talked about there's almost as many population of idols or statues.
Speaker A:In some places there would be people, just the sheer number.
Speaker A:But anyway, First Corinthians 10.
Speaker A:So I think Corinth would have been the same place.
Speaker A:We know that there were all kinds of temples in Corinth.
Speaker A:I mean, he.
Speaker A:You know, he mentions this.
Speaker A:We see it in history and archaeologies.
Speaker A:You mentioned, he, he in chapter 10, really what he's doing, he starts with this idea of Israel.
Speaker A:Remember that we've learned these things from Israel and, and, you know, they.
Speaker A:They did the kind of things that we're now doing.
Speaker A:We need to be careful.
Speaker A:Verse 18.
Speaker A:He continues with this Consider the people of Israel.
Speaker A:Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?
Speaker A:Do I mean that the food sacrificed to an idol is anything or that an idol is anything?
Speaker A:No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons.
Speaker A:And there's that word daimanion, not to God.
Speaker A:These are sacrifices to demons and not to God.
Speaker A:And I did not want you to be participants with demons, Diamondion.
Speaker A:You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons, too.
Speaker A:You cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
Speaker A:Now, when we use the word demon, we, we probably think of movies and images and, and we think particularly of evil spirits.
Speaker A:But I want you to understand that this Greek word die that I keep slaughtering, daimanion can be translated as gods.
Speaker A:In fact, let me show you one place in the Septuagint in the.
Speaker A:In the law, in the Greek translation of the.
Speaker A:Of the Hebrew Bible where it is translated.
Speaker A: Do you have Deuteronomy: Speaker B:I can.
Speaker B:I will pull it up right now.
Speaker A:And remember, Heiser calls this perspective the Deuteronomy 32 worldview.
Speaker A:So here's where the Greek word daimanion translates.
Speaker A:Go ahead and read this.
Speaker B:They sacrificed to false gods which are not God gods they had not known gods that had.
Speaker B:That recently appeared.
Speaker B:Gods your ancestors did not fear that.
Speaker A:First false gods in the Septuagint is Diamondian, probably the kind of thing that, that Paul is referencing here.
Speaker A:Consider Israel.
Speaker A:Were they not participating with these gods when they participate, when they, when they participated in the altar?
Speaker A:Kind of brings us full circle.
Speaker A:Again, this Deuteronomy 32 worldview that Heiser proposes.
Speaker A:It's not only the Old Testament passages that have this idea of the divine counsel, but there are some New Testament passages that seem to make reference to these same verses and these same chapters.
Speaker A:Even the way the words are used.
Speaker A:When we read the word demon, we need to think about how it would have been heard in the first century, not necessarily as an evil spirit, but it could be heard as the gods, as the images, the idols that they had around them.
Speaker A:And so again, we're recommending Heiser's book.
Speaker A:Again, not necessarily that we agree with everything in it, but I think that it really does kind of open our eyes to some of these passages, makes us at least think about them differently, see them from a different perspective, which is always, I think, a valuable thing when we're studying scripture.
Speaker B:Yeah, and we've talked about this before, that understanding context is so important.
Speaker B:And I think for us, it is so hard.
Speaker B:It's so hard to get our mind around.
Speaker B:We don't even know.
Speaker B:But how different they thought than us, you know, like, in that.
Speaker B:When it.
Speaker B:And so, like, that's where the.
Speaker B:The careful study is important because just as you mentioned, like, we think about demons, we think very.
Speaker B:Our attitudes have been shaped by Hollywood or, you know, like, other things that we've read.
Speaker B:And we talked about Dante's Inferno, how that's shaped our image of certain things.
Speaker B:So it's really important, I think, for us that I like the book as a kind of a shakeup for me to kind of go, like, how do I get my mind?
Speaker B:Because it's so easy for us to read it flat, like.
Speaker B:Because, right, that's what we're used to.
Speaker B:That's the world, the water we swim in.
Speaker B:And so the context is so important.
Speaker B:So, like, for me, like, Paul would.
Speaker A:Have had a cell phone and he drove a Toyota Corolla and, you know, the whole nine yards.
Speaker B:Let me what they're saying on Twitter or, you know, they send me a direct message.
Speaker B:Oh, they've got a short from Corinth.
Speaker B:But, like, how they thought and what they thought about and when they heard these words, what was popping up in their head?
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it's been.
Speaker B:It's been.
Speaker B:This book has been good for me, even.
Speaker B:Just me, even.
Speaker B:But just for me to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To kind of think.
Speaker B:Think about the words that I'm reading and how there might be something that we've become blind to in some ways in our context, that there might be another reality.
Speaker B:There's a reality underneath there as well.
Speaker A:If you want to read this book, we've got others on our website.
Speaker A:We've got a little bookstore there.
Speaker A:We just encourage you to go through there.
Speaker A:If you want to buy this, go through there.
Speaker A:It helps out with the podcast.
Speaker A:It costs money to do this.
Speaker A:And so we encourage you to get your books that way.
Speaker A:We encourage.
Speaker A:And we got some again, hopefully some exciting interviews coming up.
Speaker A:Encourage you to go onto our website.
Speaker A:TheBibleBeestro TheBibleBistro.com TheBibleBistro.Com yes, you usually do this part.
Speaker A:TheBibleBeestro Thebiblebistro.com and check it out there.
Speaker A:Send us a message if you're gonna read the book or if you read it and like it, or if you didn't like it, you disagree, whatever, send us a message.
Speaker A:We'd be happy to hear from you, make suggestions.
Speaker A:If you want to support us.
Speaker A:There's a link there that you can support us as well, and we encourage you to do that.
Speaker A:We enjoy doing this, and we hope it's valuable to you.
Speaker A:We hope it.
Speaker A:It helps you out with your walk and the way that.
Speaker A:That you minister as well.
Speaker A:So blessings on you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thanks, Brian.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sam.
