Jesus and the Law

Ryan: 00:00:12

Welcome back to Ryan and Brian's Bible Bistro. I'm Ryan and that's Brian. Say hi, Brian.

Brian: 00:00:16

Hi, Brian.

Ryan: 00:00:18

And this is the Bible Bistro, a podcast. It never, never stops being old. This is a podcast all about the Bible, theology and all things related to the Christian faith.

This is your favorite PODC that airs once every. Hey, six weeks.

Brian: 00:00:36

We're getting back on schedule. We've been, we've just been busy. We're back on schedule now.

Ryan: 00:00:39

We're very, been very, very, very busy, but we're getting back on schedule. It's getting back into Carhartt season. You know, I'm getting the. I'm. This is not a Carhartt. You know, that was our big thing in the beginning.

Brian: 00:00:51

I don't think you own anything that wasn't Carhartt.

Ryan: 00:00:54

Well, this is Duluth. You know, when you get to be a man of a certain age and as manly as I am, you just, you find your place and you go there. So. Yeah, so.

But we're back, we're continuing again, as I said in our last episode, the longest running podcast on the Sermon on the Mount that there is. And not only is it the longest running podcast on the Sermon on the Mount, we are reaching a milestone for us today.

Brian: 00:01:23

Brian, congratulations.

Ryan: 00:01:27

And what is your famous phrase? We're reaching 200 episodes. And they said. What did they say, Brian?

Brian: 00:01:32

They said it never lasts.

Ryan: 00:01:34

That's right, they said it never lasts. And yet here we are, resilient as ever.

Brian: 00:01:40

I mean, America's celebrating 250 years and we're celebrating 200 episodes. So there's something, I don't know what it is.

Ryan: 00:01:47

There's some simpatico there. We're really reaching for the stars. So we're continuing on, as I mentioned, with the Sermon on the Mount.

And so, Bryan, tell me we're going to talk about something that's, I don't want to say the word spicy. It's not spicy, but it's a little controversy.

Brian: 00:02:05

We're talking about Jesus and the law. So last time we're just working through the Sermon on the Mount, we talked about the salt and light.

You are the salt of the earth sitting set on a hill. You're the light of the world.

And so we're getting on next to the chapter five in verse 17, and I think Jesus makes kind of a statement here that becomes a thesis statement for the rest of. Not the rest of the sermon, but some of the things he's going to be talking about. Some of the famous parts of the Sermon are.

You've heard that it was said, but I say to you, right, for example, you've heard that it said, do not murder, but I say you do not be angry with your brother. Those kind of things. I think that's a pretty famous part of the Sermon on the Mount that we have here.

And so Matthew chapter 5, 17 and 18, I think sets kind of a thesis for that kind of sets.

Here's the introduction to this whole section where he's going to talk about basically some of the things in the Sermon on the Mount, things like committing adultery, murder. These ten Commandments really is some part he's referring to here. So go ahead and read Matthew 5, 17, 18 for me, if you would. There, Ryan.

Ryan: 00:03:19

Yeah, here we go. Matthew 5, 17, 18. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

For truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished.

Brian: 00:03:40

Now, you said this is a kind of a spicy issue, and I do think it's one that we've kind of misunderstood or we've oversimplified might be the better way to put it. And I think there's kind of two different ways we can misunderstand this.

On the one hand, there are some people who reject the Old Testament law completely and say it's no longer relevant for us, it's no longer important for us. And I think Jesus here makes it very clear.

And I'll say one other way it's interpreted in just a moment, but I think it makes very clear here that the Old Testament law isn't something to be done away with. And we're talking about the law. We're primarily talking about the Torah, right? The first five books of the Old Testament.

Although Jesus does here say the law and the prophets, which probably is a reference to one of the ways that he could talk about the entire, what we call the Old Testament, the prophets included, oftentimes not just what we consider the prophets, like Isaiah and Jeremiah and Daniel, but also what they called the earlier prophets, things like what we call the historical books, things like Joshua and Judges, those kind of books as well, the Kings and so.

Ryan: 00:04:50

So maybe this is like a little bit of like an idiom for him to kind of.

Brian: 00:04:53

I think so, yeah, I think so. In Luke, Luke 24, this is off the topic, but he talks about the law, the prophets and the psalms there.

And so another way to talk about the complete Old Testament, I think.

But, yeah, I think the law and the prophets is a way for him to say the Jewish scriptures, let's call them, or whatever we want to say from his perspective, the scriptures, I think how Jesus would have referred to them. But he's saying that, you know, many times we say, well, this is just no longer relevant.

But I want to say, first of all, the Law still is the inspired word of God. And I think it teaches us a great deal. It reveals a great deal about who God is, what is of concern to God.

And also it says something about ourselves as human beings. So I think we learn a great deal from the Law.

And I'm not just talking about the narrative parts of the law, like Genesis and Exodus, but I think also the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I'm always talking about how I think they reveal something.

Ryan: 00:05:54

Leviticus, come on, now.

Brian: 00:05:57

I know, I know.

Now the other hand, I think there are some people who want to just take the Old Testament law and say, well, it's still applicable and want to apply it directly. And I don't think either one of those is really the correct way to understand what Jesus is saying here. His purpose, he says, is not to abolish.

In other words, I'm not going to do away with the Old Testament, the Law, let's call it for right now, but to fulfill it.

In other words, the law is pointing toward him, and there's a way in which he's going to fill it with meaning or give it fuller meaning is, I think, really the reference here. There's a recent book, Both of Us. You've read more of it than I have, actually. Paul Sloan, I need to mention this at this point.

Paul Sloan's Jesus of the Law, you said you've read, what, about a third of it?

Ryan: 00:06:46

I've gotten through about a third of it.

Brian: 00:06:48

And then, okay, both of us have it.

Both of us have just had other reading that we've had to do, and I've been wanting to get to it, but from what I understand from people I've talked to, one of my professors is using it right now for a different class. He's teaching.

Some of the people who've talked about it that I know have read it, some of the reviews that I've read of it, it seems to be saying some very similar things to what I would think, maybe some slight differences.

But he's really taking a very similar tact to say that it's inappropriate for us to Say that Jesus is coming and somehow superseding the law and saying this is no longer relevant. He uses languages of things like Jesus becomes the. That we interpret the law.

It has to be interpreted through Jesus, because he is the ultimate goal of the law. And I think that might be a better way to think about it. I think even in the Sermon on the Mount here, he redirects people.

And I think, again, as I mentioned, this becomes a very important point in really understanding the entire Gospel of Matthew. Because I think one of Jesus points in Matthew is to say that these Pharisees who see themselves as.

Well, I'll show you a scripture in just a little bit, Matthew 23, they place themselves in this position of authority. But Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount is presenting himself as the one who has the authority to interpret the law.

I think that's what we're really looking at. He's the one who's really going to kind of take us to the heart of it.

When we think about Jesus and the law, then we have to kind of think about how do we understand this relationship? How do we understand what Jesus is saying in regard to the law? And I always like to pull these out. Pretty early example in Jesus ministry.

This is from Mark 2, and I'm going to read there's really two examples in a row that we can find here that I think are significant for what we're talking about. So this is in Mark 2. Now, Matthew records this in Matthew 12. I'll mention this in just a minute.

But in Mark 2, it's pretty early in Mark's story of Jesus. And so it says, one Sabbath, Jesus was going through the grain fields, and as his discip. Walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.

The Pharisees said to him, and so here's the major point of conflict.

I think I mentioned last episode or the episode before that, that one of the themes that we see in the Sermon on the Mount is don't be like the pagans, don't be like the hypocrites, but also don't be like the Pharisees in a very particular way. So one Sabbath, Jesus was going through the grain fields. And as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.

The Pharisees said, look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath? And so they're going to that Old Testament law that talks about not reaping on the Sabbath, not working on the Sabbath.

And so Jesus answered, have you never read what David did when he and his companions were Hungry and in need. In the days of Abiathar, the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat.

And also he gave some to his companions. Then he said to them this. So it'd be very easy for us to misunderstand Jesus point, to say, oh, well, it's okay to break the law if I need to.

I don't think that's exactly what he means by using that example of David. But he goes on, he says this. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath.

So what I think he's pointing to here is really saying that the Pharisees in some fundamental way have misunderstood the purpose of the law and what the law was about. And Jesus again is presenting himself as the appropriate interpreter. So the Sabbath was made for man.

In other words, the Sabbath was to give man a day of rest. It's interesting. I've been listening to. I've mentioned this book before, and we've talked about it.

Been you listen to the audiobook of Dominion by Tom Holland. Tom Holland. Thank you.

I've been listening to Dominion by Tom Holland, and it's interesting to talk, you know, when he's talking about some of the things that the Jewish people brought into the world. And one of them is this is the idea of having a day of rest, which was not something that was very common in many cultures.

And so the idea here, I think Jesus is saying God created the Sabb Sabbath as a benefit for man, not as something that was to be a burden for humanity. Right? It was to be a benefit. And so he's kind of turning it. So here's the other example I like to use chapter three. This is kind of continuing on.

Again, it's one of these chapter breaks. It probably is not a great one. Another time, Jesus went into the synagogue and a man with a shriveled hand was there.

Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus. So they watched him closely to see if he would heal. On the Sabbath, Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, stand of everyone.

Then Jesus asked him, which is law? Ask them which is lawful on the Sabbath, to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill. And they remain silent. So here again is this idea.

He's saying, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what God desires in the Sabbath. He looked around at them in anger and deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, stretch out your hand.

He Stretched it out, his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

These two people on very different sides of the political spectrum of the day began to work together in order to kill Jesus.

So you see, I think those two accounts about the Sabbath really kind of hold together and they kind of give us a complete picture that Jesus is opposing the Pharisees understanding of the law. So I kind of offer that as an introduction. What were you going to say?

Ryan: 00:12:59

Well, just something I think we've talked about here before, or maybe you and I have this conversation is just, you know, when Jesus is asking this to the Pharisees. There were things on the Sabbath that were okay for them to do, like if a woman is pregnant and giving birth, they could go give birth.

But here it's, Jesus is healing someone. And so it's this. Well, yes, they understand that saving a life is important here. And so it's. Jesus is kind of playing. He's not playing a game.

I don't want you to think that Jesus is playing games with people, but he's. He's using some of the.

They already had a framework to understand that the Sabbath wasn't totally for rest if something important was dependent upon it, but they had limited their vision of what it should be.

Brian: 00:13:41

Yeah, I think they would have said, well, you could wait till tomorrow to heal this man's hand. You know, he's been crippled for so.

Ryan: 00:13:47

Long, why not just wait until.

Brian: 00:13:49

I think that's kind of what, you know, the implication here is. But you know, Jesus is saying the Sabbath is a time to do good. Right. It's not a time to do evil. And, and so he heals the man.

And they immediately take that as a sign we need to get rid of this Jesus guy.

So fundamentally, this conflict is really about what is the purpose of the law, is part of what I think is going on and the purpose of what was the law intended to do? Why did God give the law?

And I'll go ahead and say one of the things that has kind of bothered me over the years, and this is kind of where I've gotten in trouble for talking about the law in this way in the past. I'm kind of glad that there's this book out there that seems to approve it because again, a lot of people say, oh, the law has passed.

I can remember when I was teaching there was an assignment, an introduction to the Bible that we required. It was one of these things when you're A young professor, you're kind of handed this syllabus. You said, here's the things that we do in this class.

And after a while, you begin to go, why are we doing this? And you change things when you get bold enough. But at the beginning, you kind of keep doing these things.

One of the things that we required was a Bible Dia is what it was called.

And one of the things you're supposed to do is every book of the Bible, all 66 books of our canon, you're supposed to say something to the effect of, here's what are the main themes? Here's what I take away from it.

And inevitably, when people would say this about the Book of Leviticus, they would say something like, what I learned from this is, I'm glad Jesus came so I don't have to keep all these laws. I mean, that was kind of their attitude. And again, I think that's pretty common.

Probably many people in the church would say, why would we even read the book of Leviticus or Deuteronomy for that matter? But I believe again that they were given in order to teach us about good things that God desires from us.

And though Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. And I said, there's some interpretation.

Some people would say, well, it's fine for Jesus to say this now, but it's really his death and his resurrection. We just finished up Easter this past week. It's his death and resurrection that fulfill the law.

And therefore from that point on, there's no longer any need for the Old Testament law. That's been an argument for a long time, since the time of Marcion. That goes all the way back to say that there is no purpose for this Old Testament.

He goes a bit more severe to say, it wasn't even written by two different gods.

Ryan: 00:16:27

It's not the Creator.

Brian: 00:16:29

God is not the ultimate God over the universe, but this kind of this. And I think maybe even if we wouldn't state that explicitly, we kind of have that sense.

But I believe that in these laws, even in Sabbath, there are important principles that God is teaching us about us and about him and our relationship to him and our relationship to one another and creation. I think there's still important principles that we need to lear. The Pharisees had become experts in making sure they kept the law.

And again, sometimes people will simplify, oversimplify this, I think, saying, oh, they were interested in legalism, and it is legalism in a way that they're saying, oh, but they become specialists in making sure that they were Going to do everything that the law said rather than thinking about what it is that the law was to accomplish. What was the purpose of God giving the Sabbath commandment, for example? Comments or questions on any of this? Anything else you want to say?

Ryan: 00:17:34

No, I don't think so. I mean, it is a. Again.

And I think you said, like, it's a common thought that we have, you know, undergrad students had it, but, you know, partly that comes from churches or whatever. You know, sometimes we just get to this idea.

You know, it's like every Bible reading plan, everybody's Bible reading usually goes pretty good until Leviticus and then it's over.

Brian: 00:17:56

Numbers.

Ryan: 00:17:56

Like, why do I got to read this? You know, Leviticus and numbers is the true test of, of obedience, I guess, if you're in a reading plan.

But yeah, I mean, I, I think we treat it that way. We don't understand, like, what it, what is the importance of here and what we're trying to get at. And in some ways that's.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's part of the issue here. So.

Brian: 00:18:16

No, I think, yeah, even if we don't state it, even if we, we're, we're, you know, if we would never say that. I think sometimes we act like, well, Leviticus is unimportant. I'm not, you know, when's the last time you did a, you know, Bible reading plan?

Like I said in Leviticus or whoever.

Ryan: 00:18:29

References it very often, you know what I mean? Like, you know, think back to your last Bible study group and go, when was the last time we hovered in Leviticus?

Now there's some of you that are probably, you know, like, oh, yeah, we did it recently, but, you know, you don't see too many devotional Leviticus books coming out.

Brian: 00:18:50

Maybe send us a message if you recently have preached a 12 week series on the book of Leviticus.

Ryan: 00:18:56

Leviticus, yes.

Brian: 00:18:57

And share your outline and we'll send.

Ryan: 00:18:59

You a gold star. A Bible bistro gold star, you said.

Brian: 00:19:02

Who quotes it? I always love to point out when Jesus says, love your neighbors yourself, it's like, oh, he's cool.

Ryan: 00:19:07

Well, that's Leviticus. Yes, yes, yes. Okay.

Brian: 00:19:09

All right.

Ryan: 00:19:11

Boy, Brian, you can't let an opportunity go by to come back.

Brian: 00:19:15

And I wasn't dissing you. Although if you want me to, I will. I'm happy to go back and read verse 18. We've talked about this so long, I've forgotten what it said.

Read verse 18 to me again if.

Ryan: 00:19:26

You for truly I tell you, until heaven and Earth disappear. Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished.

Brian: 00:19:37

This idea of truly, I say to you is something we're going to see repeated. So when he talks about. And we're going to get to this in just a minute, when he talks about murder, for example, he says, you've heard that.

It was said long ago. But I say to you, so he's setting himself up here again as the authoritative interpreter, the authoritative teacher of the law.

Not the teachers of the law. Right, but he is the teacher of the law. He's the one who. Who has the correct understanding. Notice it says, and I love the King James.

Not the least jot. Nor tittle.

It's talking about those least little, like the Yod, the least little marks in the Hebrew language are going to be done away with until heaven and earth pass away, until the end, I would say. So again, I don't think it's referring to Jesus fulfillment of the law in his death, burial and resurrection, as important as that is.

But I think his death, burial and resurrection show that he is the proper lens through which we understand the Old Testament law. All right, Matthew 5:19. Then go ahead and read that.

Ryan: 00:20:45

Therefore, anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Brian: 00:20:58

It's really interesting. He says even the least of these laws.

So again, it's almost an emphasis, right, to say whoever, you know, does away with what sets aside one of the least of these will be least in the kingdom of heaven. This is another part of this, I think, is Jesus.

Again, we talked about this Sermon on the Mount, we've talked about the Beatitudes were kind of giving us an idea of what a citizen of the kingdom of heaven looks like.

And I think that's what Jesus is giving us in this teaching as well, is we have to understand the Old Testament law as a part of God's new the kingdom, right. That Jesus is establishing around himself. So he becomes the authoritative teacher and we become his subjects, his followers. Right?

And so there's a way in which we interpret this law through him, but also in relation to one another. That it has to do with the way that we relate to one another is what he's talking about. So go ahead with verse 20.

I think this would have been the one that for many of the people that Jesus was speaking to. And this again, I want you to remember the Sermon on the Mount, I see, is a very. Oh, I don't say this.

We've lost this kind of revolutionary character, I think, over the years. And this, I think, would have been a thunderbolt when the people heard what he says in Matthew 5:20.

Ryan: 00:22:20

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Brian: 00:22:30

So, again, what does it mean to be a part of the kingdom of heaven? He says, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of law. And, you know, the teachers of law were incredibly righteous.

All you had to do is ask them, and they would be happy to tell you how righteous they were. Right. One of the things that Jesus is really down on with the Pharisees is they're very concerned with their appearance.

They want to make sure everybody knows and sees the acts of righteousness that they're doing. And so when Jesus says, your righteousness has to surpass that, again, some people will talk about this as an intensification.

They'll say, oh, Jesus actually takes the law, and he makes it more difficult. And I don't know that I like the language of intensification. I certainly understand it.

And we'll see this when we talk about murder here in just a minute. I think it has to do more with. I like the language of deepening.

I think Paul Sloan, in his book uses this language, that he takes it and he makes it deeper. In other words, it's getting more toward the heart of what it was that the law was intended to do.

So it has to do, again, not necessarily with saying. Because I think the Pharisees were great at intensifying it. You know, they.

Ryan: 00:23:40

They would say, yeah, they pushed it to the limits.

Brian: 00:23:44

Right. You want to keep the Sabbath? Well, you can only walk this far and you. You know, you can't do this, and you can't do that on the 7th.

You can do this on the 7th, or you can't do that. You know, a little like maybe meatloaf, something like that. The. The singer meatloaf. I'll do anything for love but you.

Ryan: 00:24:01

Can't for love but I can't do that. Okay. I had no idea where that was going, Brian.

Brian: 00:24:07

I didn't either.

Ryan: 00:24:08

That was like a weird dad joke that went places I could have never imagined.

Brian: 00:24:15

So they were very good at setting the. We talk about. They put fences around to make sure that nobody even came close to breaking the law.

So I don't know if it's an intensification, but more bringing people back, I would say, to the heart of the law, bringing them back to the center of what the law was about. But I think the people, when they heard this, how can my righteousness surpass that? The Pharisees, Again, you guys have heard me say this many times.

The Pharisees were heroes in that day. We always see them as the villain because of Jesus, pointing out their flaws.

But in that day, people would have said, hey, I'm a tent maker, so I work with animal skins, so there's no way I could keep ceremonial righteousness. But I am glad that the Pharisees are doing this.

It would have required a relatively wealthy person to be able to keep the law in the way that the Pharisees interpreted the law. And so I think there are people who looked at them and said, oh, wow, look at these really holy people.

We're really glad that they're trying to do what's right and they're teaching us about what's right. But Jesus here says, your righteousness has to surpass that. Again, I don't think it's saying, oh, you need to keep the law the way they're saying.

But he's basically kind of redirecting it back to what the law is about. Now, Pharisees I mentioned already in Matthew are kind of a big deal.

One of my favorite passages to talk about this is Matthew 9, 10, 13, Jesus twice. You have it. You can go ahead and read it there.

Ryan: 00:25:47

Yeah. Matthew 9, 10, 13. While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.

When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners? On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means. Desire mercy, not sacrifice.

For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Brian: 00:26:12

That's one of my favorite passages that Jesus quotes from the prophets. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. What God says, you know, the sacrificial system God put in place, I mean, that's part of the law, right?

Is the sacrificial system. And so they were very good at doing all these things. But then here they are going, why do you eat with tax collectors and sinners?

And Jesus response is, you need to go and learn what it means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Because if you know the Pharisees, you could call them righteous. Of course, Paul was a Pharisee.

And he says, as to my own righteousness, I was faultless in terms of the law, I was faultless. I did everything that the law required. But you could call the Pharisees righteous people, but I don't think you could call them merciful.

They didn't look at your average person from eyes of mercy with a heart of mercy. And so Jesus has said, here you're misunderstanding even the nature of sacrifice. Again, he's quoting the Old Testament to them.

He's quoting, the Pharisees would have accepted Micah, Hosea. And here's Jesus saying, you need to go and learn what it means when the prophet said to you, God prefers mercy rather than sacrifice.

So you've misunderstood the purpose of this. Matthew 12 is basically that same passage that we saw in Mark 2. I mentioned that earlier. A little bit more teaching there.

But again, the whole point is the hardness of the hearts of the Pharisees was something that Matthew points out there. And then in Matthew 23, we have an entire chapter that is devoted to Jesus kind of excavating the Pharisees. This is what we call the woe.

Woes to the Pharisees, where he says, woe to you. Famous one, the one I like to quote all the time, is, you're like whitewashed tombs.

You're pure on the outside, but inside you're full of dead men's bones. Or you like to wash the outside of the cup, but the inside of the cup is dirty.

In other words, you're more concerned with how people look at you than you are with your heart. But I want you to notice the beginning of this. This is in Matthew 23:1.

It says, Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, the teachers of the law. And the Pharisees sat in Moses seat. And I think that's important for us to understand. They have placed themselves. So Moses is the lawgiver, right?

And they have put themselves in that position where they are saying, we are the appropriate interpreters of the law. And Jesus again is presenting himself as different. He says, the teacher of the law of the Pharisees said in Moses, seek.

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they did not practice what they preach.

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do, this is verse five. Everything they do is done for people to see. And he talks about their phylacteries.

Which was the Old Testament. When the Old Testament law says, bind these words on your arms and on your forehead, they took that literally.

And they would have boxes on their forehead that would have the law in it. They would bind up boxes on their forearms, where I think, again, the whole point of that was to say, keep the law always before you.

Make sure you're always aware of it. You know, forehead, your forearms are very obvious places. You're not going to miss it.

And so again, they've taken that and they've made it very specific, but it's so that they can be seen by others. But he says you are to have a different kind of attitude.

So to this point, what would you say about what Jesus is saying here in Matthew 5, 17, 20 about the law? How would you kind of summarize that in your own words? Ryan?

Ryan: 00:30:11

That's a great question. I think he's making the case there's something good in it, but don't do it like the Pharisees. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's basically saying there is something good here. There was something good there.

Brian: 00:30:29

There's truth.

Ryan: 00:30:31

There's truth there. But how, again, kind of how it's been interpreted, but how the manifestation of it in the Pharisees is not what it was, what it's supposed to be.

Brian: 00:30:44

Yeah, they've missed the point.

Ryan: 00:30:45

I don't know, maybe I'm too wrapped up in it to understand what that's saying.

Brian: 00:30:49

No, I think it's good. That's very good. I think that's it. So here's the first application. This is Matthew 5, 21. Then go ahead and read that for us, if you don't mind.

Ryan: 00:30:58

You have heard it, that it was said to the people long ago. You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.

Brian: 00:31:05

I think it's really interesting because this is one of the Ten Commandments, right? Do not murder. Some other day we'll talk about the difference between murdering and killing. And the word.

There's controversy over how that should be translated. I like do not murder. But anyway, that's another topic for another day. So do not murder is one of the Ten Commandments, but notice how he says that.

Read that again and look at how he talks about that.

Ryan: 00:31:33

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago.

Brian: 00:31:36

So you've heard this, right? You've heard that it was said. So this is pointing to the teachers, the ones who have brought the law. And again, the Torah would have been read.

The law would have been read. But along with it would have been the rabbis, the Pharisees interpreting it, right. In the synagogues. And so I think this is the key here. It's not.

Well, you know what the Old Testament. He doesn't say, you know what the law says. He says, you have heard that it was said do not murder, which is the law.

But he's saying, this is something that has come to you through these teachers. And now he's contrasting himself. But I say to you, you see the significance there? This is what God said.

And I'm saying, so he's not contradicting the law. Right. He's contradicting what has been handed down. We could say Pharisees had really two Torahs. Right.

They talked about the written Torah, the written law, and the oral law, what has been handed down. And so I think he's saying, and I think he uses this term specifically. You have heard that it was said he's setting himself up as the interpreter.

So what does he say? He says, you've further said, do not murder. But I say to you. Go ahead and repeat that part for me.

Ryan: 00:32:59

Yeah, but I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

Brian: 00:33:05

Okay, go ahead again.

Ryan: 00:33:08

Anyone who says to a brother or sister, raqqa is answerable to the court. Anyone who says, you fool, will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Brian: 00:33:16

We'll come back to that in just a minute. But this idea, even. Even anger. So how would you. How would you describe the difference between murder and anger here in this? What.

What do you think is the difference between. I mean, there's a lot of difference, obviously, between murder and anger.

Ryan: 00:33:31

Well, one of them is someone dies, and the other one, you just don't like them or you're temporarily frustrated.

Brian: 00:33:41

So murder is an action. Right. It's something that we. It would be something that would be.

Ryan: 00:33:46

Done again, an external physical manifestation.

Brian: 00:33:50

Right. The Pharisees are very concerned. This is one of those things you might say if you're reading the Ten Commandments.

This is why, again, intensification is the way that some people describe this. Because, man, it's pretty.

Most of us, hopefully listening to this podcast, hopefully, have not killed too many people who not committed too many homicides.

Ryan: 00:34:12

But we're not judging.

Brian: 00:34:14

I don't know. I'm not judging.

Ryan: 00:34:16

Don't stop listening if you have.

Brian: 00:34:21

But that's one thing for us to say. Well, I've never killed anybody. I've never murdered anybody. But most of us have. Have been angry.

The Difference is that's something that the anger is something that's internal, right?

What I think, and this isn't just from this passage that Jesus, that we find here in Matthew, chapter five in the Sermon on the Mount, but the Scripture overall seems to indicate that there's something that begins in us, in our interior. Whether we want to call it our hearts or our minds.

However we think about that, there's something that begins there and that expresses itself in action. So we could put it this way, that anger is an attitude or the emotion even, we might say, that gives rise to murder. Right.

Typically, you're not going to murder somebody that you're not angry with unless you're really sociopathic. But this idea that it gives rise to it, it's something that begins inside of us but then becomes external.

And so Jesus, again, notice he's focusing upon, even anger is something that you should do away with in your righteousness. Again, you can understand that it's an intensification, but I think it's again, a redirection.

Not just concerned with the external, but really think about why God gave us that command not to kill. Because it has to do with the way that we feel inside of us toward another person, the anger that we would express toward another person.

Thoughts on that or anything you want to add and clarify?

Ryan: 00:36:06

No, I don't think there's. I mean, yeah, I mean, there is a. I mean, obviously there's a stark contrast here. Like what? You know, the physical manifestation. But it's.

Then it's the heart issue of the anger. Like, what are you keeping inside of you for it? So, no, you did a good job.

Brian: 00:36:21

Explaining that, Brian, back to Matthew, chapter five. Then the other part of this. So you said this, this. Anyone who says to his brother, this is in verse 22.

Anyone who says to a brother or sister, raca is answerable to the court. So the court here would be the Sanhedrin, right? That would be the Jewish court, right. Within that system that had been established.

So this idea of raca is the idea of an empty head or a fool is kind of the idea. So this is something you're not supposed to do. But anyway, anyone who says, you fool, he says, will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And again, people, if we take this very literally, it's a big problem. I think it has to do with showing contempt toward another person. If we say these kind of derogatory things to him.

It's an external way of something that shows our attitude inside that we're showing contempt toward them, that we're showing a lack of respect toward them. We're not understanding them in the way that it should be. A couple of passages in First John that I think help with this. I had you look that up.

Go ahead. What are you saying?

Ryan: 00:37:39

Yeah, so, I mean, again, I mean, if you want to just hover here on the raca a little bit, but, like, raqqa is kind of like, I looked up my b dag over here, and it says numbskull. But anyone, again, anyone who says to a brother, sister, or word, fool, like, you fool, is answerable to the court.

And anyone who says, you fool will be in danger of the fire of the hell. So, I mean, it's almost a duplication here, isn't it, of the statement, in a sense.

Brian: 00:38:05

So, again, this is an example where the Pharisees had codified the command, right? They're saying, you should not say raca, but there are other words that they would have allowed.

You see what I'm saying again, Jesus is saying, it's not a matter of keeping the letter of the law. It's a matter of what is your attitude toward your brother or sister. And that's why. Yeah, go ahead.

Ryan: 00:38:30

Yeah, so the Pharisees were concerned about one particular word, you know, like how maybe a couple words. But, like, if you say it in these ways, then you're going to come to us. But if you say it in another way. Totally cool.

Brian: 00:38:44

Exactly.

Ryan: 00:38:45

And Jesus is saying, like, no, no, no, you're subject to me.

Brian: 00:38:49

You're always saying, so what? Let's get practical with this for just a minute.

We're really good at circumlocutions, too, of saying things that kind of avoid what we're really saying. It's always interesting when you begin to. We can hear this in someone else a lot easier than we can hear it in ourselves, I think.

And so I think this is one of those examples where Jesus is kind of saying, you need to look in your heart and see where these words come out of. I'll be honest. Honest. And, you know, I wish my wife was here to validate this, but I have hair. I have horrible road rage, you know, where people.

I mean, I haven't ever, like, gotten out of the car and hit anybody. Although the other day in Chicago, I almost did, but I really wanted to. But, you know, I'm saying things about people. And again, maybe I'm not using.

The words that we say are like raqqa. Right. Oh, nobody should say that word. Right. But I can use a lot of circumlocutions that they get across the same idea, right? We dance up.

So all of us have these. And these are kind of the mores is the word that comes to mind. These are the kind of the unwritten rules of our community, right.

Even within evangelical Christianity in North America, right? We may have these words. They say, oh, you never should say that word.

But Jesus is saying here, you need to also look at your attitude, and you need to think about where this comes from in your heart. Does that make sense? Do you want to say anything more?

Ryan: 00:40:31

No. I mean, yes, we all have those things that we. You try to say it without saying it, and you know what you mean.

Brian: 00:40:41

Everybody in the room knows what you mean, right?

Ryan: 00:40:44

Everybody knows what you mean, and you know what you mean. But I didn't say it. So don't come at me me.

Brian: 00:40:51

I think that's exactly what's going on here. So here's an application of it, right?

When we begin to have these kind of attitudes toward other people, what does it say about what we're thinking about them? So read these passages in 1 John. I think they really help us. 3:15 I have there, I think. And then chapter four for you. Is that what I have?

Ryan: 00:41:10

Yeah. So I've got both of them here. 1 John 3:15. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer.

And you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him him.

Brian: 00:41:20

So stop for just a minute and think about that. Anyone who hates is a murderer, right? So Cain and Abel is the example.

And I don't know if you know this, there's only one proper name in all of one John, and it's Cain. He uses Cain as this example. And you know, he's a murderer from the beginning is kind of the idea.

And so Cain, his desire to kill his brother began with this idea of a jealousness, right? Or my sacrifice was not acceptable and his was. And so it gives rise. Then the action is murder. But it begins with this idea of hatred.

So John, and I think John is drawing on Jesus teaching here where he says, even anger or hatred in this case is murder. And it makes us kind of think very, very strongly about ourselves.

There are all kinds of things that happen in the news, and we've talked about the divisiveness of where we are as a nation before. And it's one thing to disagree with a person. I don't think disagreement is wrong.

But when we begin to vilify other people and begin to have these attitudes of hatred toward others and man, sometimes the rhetoric, even in the things people say in public now, sometimes, like on social media, media. I don't want to sound like he already said, I have a dad joke. I don't want to sound like back in my day.

But these are things that I don't think would have been said 50 years ago or 40 years ago or even 30 years ago. Maybe this really strong language where people are saying, I wish that person was dead. And that, that, I mean, talk about hatred is murder.

I mean, when you're saying in your heart, I hate them to the point that I wish they would die, that's pretty close to what John is saying here. Go ahead and read that other passage.

Ryan: 00:43:30

,: 1921

For whoever does not love their brother and sister whom they have seen cannot love God whom they have not seen.

Brian: 00:43:49

What do you think? Sorry, go ahead, finish it.

Ryan: 00:43:53

And he has given us this command. Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Brian: 00:43:59

So what do you think is the point here? When he says, how can you say you love God whom you've not seen, and then you hate your brother whom you have seen?

What do you think is the idea there?

Ryan: 00:44:09

If you can't love the one that's right in front of you, how can you love someone that's not right in front of you?

Brian: 00:44:14

Right.

Ryan: 00:44:15

Like it's. I mean, I think it's again, like, if your actions.

I mean, if we're kind of going on this heart thing, if your heart can't be turned towards the person right in front of you, how can your heart be turned towards God?

Brian: 00:44:28

Jesus identifies, and this is later in Matthew as well, Jesus identifies what you've done for the least of these you've done for me, that when you have clothed the naked, fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, you've done that for me. He's says there's a way in which.

How can we look at the people that God has created with extreme prejudice, extreme hatred, and say, we love God, Say we love the Creator, but we hate the ones that he has created. And so I guess it's easier in a way to love an abstract, right? Oh, yeah, I love everybody.

But I like what you said, where it's the person who's right in front of you. You know, it's one thing to say, oh, I love everybody. I don't hate anybody.

But then when that person cuts you off in traffic in Chicago, you know, that it's. When it's the concrete, not just the abstract, that are. You know, what's within us is shown. I think that's what's.

You know, I'm condemning myself here. But that's when we show what's truly within, when it's expressed in a concrete way. I think. Other thoughts on that?

Ryan: 00:45:49

Nope. I think that's a pretty good thought. I mean, again, I would say this. We all know this internally.

For us, we all know those places where it's like, oh, yeah, I don't dislike anybody. And then there's some. There's someone. If we put them in front of you, you'd find a way.

You know, like, it's like, yeah, everybody's open until that one person or that one thing happens. And it's like, you know, and. And that's, you know, that's the. That's the hard thing. That's.

That's got to root out, you know, to define when you root it out.

Brian: 00:46:24

Yesterday I was shopping at Sam's club. I won't go into the details of why, but I was at Sam's club and. And I was pushing my little cart out and. And there was this person again.

It ticks me off in the moment. You know, they're speeding up in their cart to get ahead of me.

You know how they check you out at the door to make sure you didn't steal a bunch of stuff. And, you know, they passed me and went around me, and I'm like, come on, seriously. It's like, what? Anyway, But. But, yeah, it's. It's.

Ryan: 00:46:58

Did you have cart rage?

Brian: 00:47:00

I almost did. I didn't hit. I didn't hit her with the cart, but I thought about it. Anyway.

Ryan: 00:47:07

Anyway, this has been very therapeutic for you, Brian. You can talk about your road rage and your cart rage.

Brian: 00:47:13

It really shows my anger. But it does. It shows what's within us. And, you know, it's funny. It's almost like an exaggeration to say, well, hatred and murder are the same.

But then when you really begin to think about it and you begin to really, really say again, the things we see people saying today, even in public, I think it brings it home. So just a little bit more. Look at Matthew 5, 23, 24. Go ahead and read that.

And this is something we see in the Old Testament quite frequently as well. But Jesus is making sure we pay attention to it.

Ryan: 00:47:48

Therefore, if you're offering your gift at the altar and there, remember that your brother or sister has something against you. Leave Your gift there in front of the altar. First go, go and be reconciled to them, then come and offer your gift.

Brian: 00:48:03

So offering your gift at the altar, the Pharisees would say, oh, this is central. This is what the law tells us we have to do, right?

But he says, if you're in that process of worshiping God, of offering something to God, and you remember something against your brother has against you, you need to go and reconcile while before you make the offering. So again, it's a similar kind of thing that he's saying. How can you worship God when you have this thing against your brother or sister?

And so reconciliation is necessary for true worship to take place. The prophets are full of this kind of language that when we have these things, things against one another, it will hinder our prayers.

Or the prophets say, God will not hear us because we are at odds with one another. And so this passage is, I think, an important one for us to think about.

The Pharisees would say, well, if you ask a Pharisee what's most important, they would say, oh, offering. Got to do my offering for God. It has to be done in the right way. It has to be the correct kind of offering, all that kind of stuff, thing.

They would have been experts in that.

But then Jesus is here pulling us back to say, well, really the whole point of coming to God, you know the phrase is to lift up clean hands in prayer, right? We want to make sure that we're right with one another. The part of the law was to make sure that we as community were right with one another.

And that's where I think we begin. When I mentioned interpreting this as part of God's kingdom, we have to think about what it means to be a part of his kingdom.

I'll be very careful here, I guess, but there's a lot of rhetoric out there right now about God's kingdom. And I think one of the things that we have to make sure to understand is God's kingdom is not limited to any ethnic or national group.

Again, I'll go back to Tom Holland Dominion, and it's interesting as he's talking about the early emperors, one of the things that was frustrating to them about the very earliest church was that they wouldn't like, if you were asking about their ethnicity, they would say, well, I'm a Christian, right? They place that above any other identification. And that was a frustrating thing for Rome. It didn't fit within their model, right? And.

And so that idea. And I think if we think that the kingdom of God is limited to any particular nation or people group. Just to be frank, just to be very.

To bring it to a fine point. If we think the kingdom is limited, then we've misread Scripture because the kingdom is a multi. It is a worldwide phenomenon.

It is a kingdom without boundaries. And that is what Jesus teaches us.

Not to skip to the end of the book, but Matthew 28, that's how the book ends, is go and make disciples of all nations.

And then the image we get in Revelation at the very end of that book, the end of our New Testament, is people from every tribe and tongue and language together raised praise to God.

And so, you know, this idea of reconciliation with one another, I think is an important part of what has to happen before we make our offering to God. Further thoughts on that or anything else you want to add?

Ryan: 00:51:53

No.

I mean, it just kind of reminds me in First Corinthians talking about communion and, you know, like when we take the Lord's Supper together, like, you know, taking this unworthy manner, it's kind of look at the body, look at your brothers and sisters around you. Make sure that there is harmony here in this before you participate in this act as well.

Because it's not just about taking the bread and drinking the wine. It's about the manner by which we come to it.

Brian: 00:52:23

It's interesting.

The church that I currently serve is the Sermon on the Mount, I think I mentioned this before, is a very central book for the very central part of their canon. We, we all have parts of the Bible that we emphasize over others, and for that church, this is one of them.

And this verse is one of those that they take very seriously. So I'm just going to say this. It's interesting you brought this up.

One of the things that we have to do is we have to make sure people know when we're offering the Lord's Supper.

Now, I think the Lord's Supper should be offered every time we gather, but one of the reasons that they require it to be stated ahead of time is for this very reason. It's kind of what you're talking about. If you have.

Literally they would say if there's something against somebody in that community, you need to go reconcile that before you can take the Lord's Supper. Before you can really commune with one another and be one body, you have to make sure. And that emphasis I really appreciate. Right.

Again, I don't think by that we should then delay the Lord's Supper. But I think it is. I think it's an important part of what it means when we gather to have this meal together is we need to be right with one another.

Other thoughts?

Ryan: 00:53:42

I don't. I'm empty headed.

Brian: 00:53:45

to talk about today. This is: 2526

Ryan: 00:53:53

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who was taking you to court. Court.

Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge and the judge may hand you over to the officer and you may be thrown into prison. Truly, I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Brian: 00:54:11

So settle things quickly with one another. Again, this court, the question is here again.

We usually think about it in terms of a judicial, like a governmental function, where I think Jesus here is probably again talking about the Pharisees. He's talking about the court of the Jewish rulers.

But the idea is you need to settle things with one another rather than depending upon them, depending upon the judge to come to this conclusion. You should be willing to settle with one another. Similar you mentioned 1 Corinthians when it comes to the Lord's Supper.

This is something that Paul says about when you take things to court, aren't you already defeated? You should be able to settle these things and make these decisions with one another. And so I think it has to do what Paul says there is.

We're very concerned about our own rights to the point that we don't think about the importance of relationship with one another. The law. That's another thing I think we miss a lot of times in the law. It's often read and I think this is the way the Pharisees read it.

It's just about how we respond to God.

When there's big chunks of the law that are concerned about the way that we relate to one another and that we, we don't wrong another person, we don't take advantage of another person. And I think Jesus is again bringing us back to that. So final thoughts. Yeah.

Ryan: 00:55:35

Okay, so I'm going to ask you the question, so what parts of the law? I mean, if the law is good, what parts do we keep? Or what? You know, like what's all of it? So here's what should I be eating? Pork chops or no bacon?

Brian: 00:55:49

Is that so there's different, this question's been answered in different ways. One of them is talks. So everybody tries to separate these into the ceremonial and the different kinds of law. Ethical.

And those always break down for Me, whenever I've tried to apply those consistently, that's what I used to teach. When I say all of it, I think we interpret the law in the same way that we interpret the rest of the Scripture.

Again, as Christians, Jesus becomes the lens through which we understand the law. And when I say we keep all of it, I think all of it is instructive for us about what it is that is important to God.

Now, pork chops isn't necessarily. It's not like, oh, gee, don't eat pork. I think it has to do with, you're not going to be like the other nations around you. That's part of it.

There's an idea. So I think. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can learn principles from all parts of the law.

But I think we make a mistake if we try to directly, the same way we do with even reading 1 Corinthians. But there's a bigger separation here, right?

But I think we always have to think about, okay, what's the principle at work and how do we apply it within our context?

So after Jesus, clearly the early church, and we have to read the Jerusalem Council and all this kind of thing, there were certain things that they said, well, we still want you to do these things. Even Gentiles need to keep these things.

But there are other things, like circumcision, for example, which is a major part of the law that they said is no longer necessary.

I think another way that people have interpreted is, well, anything that is in the New Testament that says we need to continue to do it, then we should do it. Anything that's not given fulfillment that needs to be done away with. And again, I think that's misunderstanding the point as well.

And I know this is kind of confusing, I suppose, but I think we treat Leviticus and Deuteronomy the same way we would any other inspired book in that we consider it within its historical context. We try to understand the best we can why God. And that's what I think Jesus is pointing us to. Why did God give you these laws?

So even the sacrificial system, he says, I did it because I wanted you to become merciful people. I think I've actually had somebody say this to me in the past.

Well, in some ways I wish we were still under the Old Testament, because whenever I sinned, all I'd have to do is offer a sacrifice, right? And it's like, that's missing the point. I think you've missed the point. The law was to teach people not to sin.

I think it was to teach people to treat one another well. I think that's what we see there. So even the very esoteric things, I think we can learn something about God's nature.

I think we can learn something about what he desires for his people. And so I think it's just like any other book. We have to understand it within its historical context. Context.

We understand the principles, and those principles apply to us today.

We make a mistake, whether we're reading John or First Corinthians or the book of Leviticus, to take those directly, like they were written directly to our time and our situation without any kind of interpretation, does that. Yes, that makes sense.

Ryan: 00:59:31

Yeah.

Brian: 00:59:34

Now, there's a broader.

When I compare First Corinthians and Leviticus, there's a broader difference in culture between our time and Leviticus than there is our time in 1 Corinthians. Part of it is 1st Corinthians, written after Jesus. Right. And so I do think that there is a difference in what he has accomplished.

But I think part of our problem with the Old Testament is we have even misunderstood how it was understood in Jesus time. And that's what a lot of recent. This is where I get in trouble all the time. And it really comes out of my appreciation for Tom Wright.

He's really the one who kind of began to show me and the whole new perspective on Paul. It was never about Paul, all, you know, like. And this is a simplification of the Lutheran view, you know, let me footnote all this.

But it was never about an emphasis, a contrast between grace and the works of the law. Right. It was never about legalism versus grace. And whenever I would say this, people always. This is one of the things that always.

People would freak out. I would always say the law is a system of grace. The law was a means by which God showed grace to his people.

And what I mean is, you're not getting what you deserve. You're receiving grace and mercy even in the law, where you are offering sacrifice in order to draw near to God.

So even the law is a system of grace, I would say. And that's. Again, people yell at me about that all the time. But. But that's what I think. So.

Ryan: 01:01:22

Gotcha. All right. Well, there's plenty there to chew on then for us.

Brian: 01:01:26

Yeah. So this is the first. And we will see Jesus saying other things. You've heard that it was said that I say to you.

So hopefully we'll be coming up with those in the next next few months. We're hoping to get back on schedule. We have. We both have lots of things to read, lots of things to do right now.

Ryan: 01:01:44

So, yeah, I'm wrapping up a couple classes and then I'm going down to one class after. After this. So looking forward to that. So, Brian, appreciate you. Appreciate the time.

And if you're enjoying the Bible Bistro, you can find us on YouTube, you can find us on Facebook and I think Instagram. Yeah, you can also find us@thebiblebistro.com I'll just make a quick caveat note here.

We had to change some things on the website because we were getting attacked on the website by all kinds of not like comments, but web hits and so forth.

So the website's a little bit different, but we're still going to be putting up links in the show, notes with books and stuff that if you want to support us a little bit, you can purchase through there. Greatly appreciate it. So, yeah, Brian, thanks so much.

Appreciate all the work you put into this and look forward to seeing y' all next time we get together.

Brian: 01:02:32

See you later.

Ryan: 01:02:33

All right, See you, Brian.

Brian: 01:02:34

Bye. Bye.